P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[T.S.Davis]

Dang Dave, like you squeezed that right out of my head. Our heads were traveling down the same path there.

[dethow]

Is it time for us all to put on our big boy pants and run P? Somebody talk me down here please. hahaha

I think there will be a transition period where clubs will need to run more P to include the new RTR boats until enough 40mm RTR options exist that the limited rules change to upgrade from a list of 36mm motors to 40mm motors so that this new upcoming fleet of RTR boats will have a place to race without having to compete with the high end motors and speedo some will be running in the P class.

[LuckyDuc]

Depending on the club... It only takes 3 boats to have a "P" class on any given race day.

For me, the P-Ltd class was appealing because that was where the masses and talent pool happened to be at that time. The speeds were about right... Low to mid 50's, you could flip, hit a bouy, rub another boat, and not completely destroy your boats in the process.

[RayR]

Full P makes sense based upon the prevalence of budget motors and speedo's, but then brings the 34" length limit into question. What good does it do to have a boat that spends most of it's time upside down.

[Darin Jordan]

For me, the P-Ltd class was appealing because that was where the masses and talent pool happened to be at that time. The speeds were about right... Low to mid 50's, you could flip, hit a bouy, rub another boat, and not completely destroy your boats in the process.

I'm curious as to what you think has changed, or what you think will change?

[dethow]

Depending on the club... It only takes 3 boats to have a "P" class on any given race day.

For me, the P-Ltd class was appealing because that was where the masses and talent pool happened to be at that time. The speeds were about right... Low to mid 50's, you could flip, hit a bouy, rub another boat, and not completely destroy your boats in the process.

I'm not sure where those speed numbers are coming from but my P-Limited boats are running 45 to 47mph based on several GPS tests. I'm running right along with most other boats. There are a couple faster on the water in our club that may be pushing close to 50mph but they are well setup and very efficient boats.

I just don't think a low to mid 50's is a realistic number and thus making it sound like these existing limited motors will be able to push a new 40mm RTR boat as fast as the 50mph out-of-box they are/will be advertising. Thus... we won't have people WANTING to pull their 40mm motors to replace with a limited 36mm motor.

Full disclosure... I'm not saying you are wrong about the speeds. You boats may be very well setup and accomplishing that. But a 50mph p-limited boat is not the predominant from what I've experienced.

[Darin Jordan]

People talking about just "transitioning" to full-P maybe don't understand exactly what full-P is??

ANY Motor(s) (2 motors in Cats, etc...)
4S 2P batteries (TWICE the number of cells... TWO 4S packs as opposed to 1)
Heavier duty drivelines (.187 cable, Heavier hardware, etc.)
Heavier Duty boats (A light-weight RTR in full P will destroy itself in the first flip.


The point was to keep this reasonably priced to do. Now you guys want to just throw the doors back open?

I'm not seeing the need, on a NATIONAL level, to even attach this to RTRs any-longer.

That made sense when the RTRs fit the profile, but they don't, or won't, as time goes on.

Also... WHO really runs RTR boats, or even just the hulls, at a National event? A few Revolts raced by the locals putting on the event, maybe a BJ29 or MG... Even in our club, which is really one of the center-points for all-things P-LTD, Revolts are giving way to Pursuits, and MG29's are giving way to Sprint Cats...

I think we need to take a very honest look at the RTR industry, and just HOW much it's actually feeding, or NOT feeding, our racing classes.

I, personally, believe it's a VERY small part of the equation. One that should be handled on the CLUB level.

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, Sean is a sport hydro guy. One of the fastest to be honest. Low 50's isn't crazy.

The 34" is still a limiter on it's own. My P mono is proof of that. Finally had to ditch the beast motor because finishing was nearly impossible. Now I have a $120 TP motor......and the MSRP on a AQ2030 is......$119.99. Interesting ain't it?

[LuckyDuc]

I'm curious as to what you think has changed, or what you think will change?

The RTR market offering is what I think has/will continue to change. I'm just trying to gauge where the masses and talent pool will go so I have boats ready for it.

I'm not sure where those speed numbers are coming from but my P-Limited boats are running 45 to 47mph based on several GPS tests. I'm running right along with most other boats. There are a couple faster on the water in our club that may be pushing close to 50mph but they are well setup and very efficient boats.

I just don't think a low to mid 50's is a realistic number and thus making it sound like these existing limited motors will be able to push a new 40mm RTR boat as fast as the 50mph out-of-box they are/will be advertising. Thus... we won't have people WANTING to pull their 40mm motors to replace with a limited 36mm motor.

Full disclosure... I'm not saying you are wrong about the speeds. You boats may be very well setup and accomplishing that. But a 50mph p-limited boat is not the predominant from what I've experienced.

Just from my own personal experience, but these numbers will obviously vary based on wind, water, and temperature conditions, etc: http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...268#post595268

[RayR]

Or maybe 4S is dead, and 6S is the new normal. Lower amp draw, limited it to 1P, it becomes very cost effective.

[dethow]

Darin, I completely follow what you are saying and questioning. But at some level we have to include the RTR market or we are looking at blocking out new people entering. Where does a new IM31 with the 40mm motor race? And what about the other future RTR that may come out to complete with that? Are we saying that no one can get in this and have a place to run at national events unless they want to run slower then what off-the shelf boats are running OR they want to start building $1500+ boats to compete in P or Q?

As of right now... our club doesn't run full P classes for mono or cat. So for us we could either put these guys into the P class and start running them or, yes, our local club makes a special class just for them. But then they still have no place to compete at national events.

It's understood that these RTR 40mm P boats will not be able to complete with the high-end boats. And that's why I believe over time the limited class will have to change to upgrade to 40mm motors.

For the existing situation your resolution makes complete sense and its a great idea. Just bringing up the thought that if we change to specs in limited this will not be the end of it. There are other future issues that are going to require more change to limited class. And since these 40mm boats are already being sold and more may be coming.... are we jumping the gun on making this change? Maybe patients would be served here and wait to see what happens with the RTR so that any changes made to limited will provide a place for them to race at national events.

Again... I follow some of your logic on why even consider what the RTR market is doing. But to be inclusive and cost effective we have to consider them.

I see the point that most guys at national events are not running RTR. As you say only the local guys putting on the event bring RTR stuff. So the local club guys that help put on a national event will not be able to participate in the national event because they only run RTR that their club has special classes for??? I see some hurt feelings that those guys won't be included in a big event that may only come around to them locally once every 5 years or so.

Newbie talking here... but I don't think that on a national level we should be heading down a road of either running slower then RTR or run with the big dogs and spend $$$$ to be included.

[dethow]

Dave, Sean is a sport hydro guy. One of the fastest to be honest. Low 50's isn't crazy.

Ohhh.... okay, I wasn't think about sport hydro. Yes I fully agree they are moving at those speeds. My head was in mono and cat as I'm thinking about how these new RTR 40mm motors will run with limited 36mm motors in them.

[D. Newland]

People talking about just "transitioning" to full-P maybe don't understand exactly what full-P is??

ANY Motor(s) (2 motors in Cats, etc...)
4S 2P batteries (TWICE the number of cells... TWO 4S packs as opposed to 1)
Heavier duty drivelines (.187 cable, Heavier hardware, etc.)
Heavier Duty boats (A light-weight RTR in full P will destroy itself in the first flip.

Darin-that is NOT what is powering the majority of national P Hydro, P-Sport Hydro, P-OPC or even P-Cat boats. That's another part of this conundrum. I can do all of those classes with a 1415 Neu and 1P. In fact, my P-Ltd Mono had a (kind of) obscure battery selection (a pair of 4S 3700's) to clear an offshore run. That boat is (was) more $$ than any of the others I just listed...

This discussion is really getting the thoughts down on paper, so to speak. I know it's frustrating that we sometimes spin in circles, but I'm sure a direction will appear.

If anyone is in contact with Aquacraft, it would sure help to know if they plan on supporting their current cat offerings, and possibly the UL-1 parts supply. If so, for how long, etc.

If both AQ and ProBoat move up the motor chain, then the only reason to update the P-Ltd rule is to keep the current hulls on the water. The Nitro A sized hulls.

[Ken Haines]

Also... WHO really runs RTR boats, or even just the hulls, at a National event? A few Revolts raced by the locals putting on the event, maybe a BJ29 or MG... Even in our club, which is really one of the center-points for all-things P-LTD, Revolts are giving way to Pursuits, and MG29's are giving way to Sprint Cats...

One exception !!!
Most of the P-Ltd Cats are RTR's as far as I know.
In my case the Lucas Oil set up correctly is certainly capable of winning a Nat's.,
or at least it was in 2014.
Again, no disrespect just my experience in that class.
The other P-Ltd classes you are more correct however
the idea of those classes was to have a limited power system
like you pretty much say is way less current draw power and less money.
Good point on the "Full P" Class description.
you are very correct in pointing out the fact that most winning P class
boats need big horsepower, heavy duty drivelines, etc. if they want to win at a big event.

[longballlumber]

If anyone is in contact with Aquacraft, it would sure help to know if they plan on supporting their current cat offerings, and possibly the UL-1 parts supply. If so, for how long, etc.

This is my own personal opinion (meaning I don't have any insider info), but I wouldn't put much faith into AquaCraft's future with respect to P-Limited Racing. EVEN IF they fill the currently open position, I HIGHLY doubt they will have a good barometer for the "state of the hobby". Their bottom line is $$$$ and has little to no interest what NAMBA or IMPBA is doing for the future. I have been wrong before, I hope I am this time. Even if they do fill the position, I won’t be betting my pay check that it will be like the “old days”.

Does anyone want to move to the middle of a corn field and know how to use Solidworks?

The wife wants to move closer to her family eventually (Chicago burbs). Champagne is just a little too far to make it work.