P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[Darin Jordan]

Open-P is the class for tuning, not P-Limited. The way things are P-Limited takes more tuning then open. Makes no sense to me.

All classes have to be tuned for. It's just life when you are racing. 40mm motors (.45 vs. .21s) just mean you get to do it 10mph faster.

[dethow]

36mm x 60mm motors are a standard size across the industry. We're not talking about a dieing technology here.

Then why is only one of the suggested 36mm motor additions actually currently available to purchase? But yet I can go buy anything I want in a 4074 in multiple brands from multiple sources.

And.... RTR is already starting to make the leap to 40mm as well. The industry standard is/has changed.... but I guess we should just stick with brushed motors because that what everyone already has.

[Darin Jordan]

Then why is only one of the suggested 36mm motor additions actually currently available to purchase? But yet I can go buy anything I want in a 4074 in multiple brands from multiple sources.

You can go buy your 4074, just like I can go buy ANY of the other 9 motors being suggested to add to the existing list.

You are trying to change the performance envelope of this VERY successful class structure. I'm working to keep it the same, and also trying NOT to destroy the investments of those who have sustained this class for 5+ years.

We are likely at an impasse on this topic... You'll never convince me that pushing the performance of this class 10mph+ faster is ever going to make any sense.

[dethow]

See any Brushed Motors or NiMH these days?

YES... I could actually go buy those easier then majority (8 out of 9) of the new 36mm motors suggested.

[dethow]

You can go buy your 4074, just like I can go buy ANY of the other 9 motors being suggested to add to the existing list.

I've asked the question multiple times in this thread and no one has answered me yet. WHERE DOES ONE FIND THESE? Other then the TP 1950 I can't find any of the other 8 suggested on OSE, Kintec, RC Boat Bitz, eBay or Amazon.

YOU may be able to buy ANY of these, but where do I buy them. I'm not a TFL dealer and I don't have any special connections to manufactures.

As I said before... what does it really say about these motors that no one even sells them? Means no one wants them. Means they are NOT the industry standard.

[Darin Jordan]

And.... RTR is already starting to make the leap to 40mm as well. The industry standard is/has changed.... but I guess we should just stick with brushed motors because that what everyone already has.

Dave, I was here when P-LIMITED was CONCEIVED. I helped write the rules. I know what the intent of the class was. Our club in 2007 ran the first "P-LIMITED" style spec class at the 2007 Nationals at Mirror Lake in Monroe, WA.

P-LIMITED was NOT a class designed to be all inclusive of any RTR that might come along. The selection of THOSE motors on that list currently was done because it was CONVENIENT, and didn't require that we actually sit down and figure out what the rules for motor limits might be. They were also selected because the defined a PERFORMANCE LIMIT for the class. We didn't want "P" speeds out of these things. And, conveniently at the time, since we selected THEIR motors, the current batch of RTRs happened to fit as well. A few follow-on RTRs even got designed to specifically be able to fit into the class (hmmmm.... I wonder whose idea that was???)

I'm sorry you are feeling beaten up. That's not my intent. However, it doesn't seem like you are understanding that what YOU are talking about is taking a class that basically has similar to "N2" speeds, without the amp draw or expense of N2, and trying to turn that into an ALMOST (if not MOST) "P" class. And for WHAT? So ONE RTR boat (IM31 currently) can be squeezed into the class??

That just doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's the spirit of the class. The class is "LIMITED P"... 4S, but slower/less powerful.

[Darin Jordan]

I've asked the question multiple times in this thread and no one has answered me yet. WHERE DOES ONE FIND THESE? Other then the TP 1950 I can't find any of the other 8 suggested on OSE, Kintec, RC Boat Bitz, eBay or Amazon.

YOU may be able to buy ANY of these, but where do I buy them. I'm not a TFL dealer and I don't have any special connections to manufactures.

As I said before... what does it really say about these motors that no one even sells them? Means no one wants them. Means they are NOT the industry standard.

First off, the limited "list" of motors wasn't my idea. YOU are one of the several who clamoured to "make it easier" on everyone and just give a list. If it were up to me, I'd have defined a set of INDUSTRY STANDARD dimensions (yes, 36x60 IS a VERY popular motor size... ) and left it at that.

If you want a TP motor, you simply go here: http://www.tppowerusa.com/motors/bui...series/tp-3630, select the wind you want, and in 2-weeks you'll have it. All for $85.00.

Steven has already said he was working on the Leopard motors, and he is likely to have the TFL motors as well.

Turnigy may be an option as well. I've asked here, but haven't really gotten any response from people.

The point is that these motors ARE available. If you just wanted to be able to get a motor ANYWHERE, then you'd have let me just leave this at the dimensional specs and let the racers find their motors. That wasn't what people wanted.

The VERY SAME ISSUES are going to exist if you tried to define the list for several manufacturers of 40mm motors... Same brands, different sizes.

The Motors on the proposed list are from manufacturers that supply a lot of product. They're likely to be around, in other words. Not everything is always in stock, however. Sometimes there has to be demand.

At least with two of these three manufacturers, getting the motors is simply a matter of ordering them.

[dethow]

However, it doesn't seem like you are understanding that what YOU are talking about is taking a class that basically has similar to "N2" speeds, without the amp draw or expense of N2, and trying to turn that into an ALMOST (if not MOST) "P" class. And for WHAT? So ONE RTR boat (IM31 currently) can be squeezed into the class??

That is not my intension at all. My intention is to move to the next step in this hobby and stop burning up motors. Which is probably why RTR boats are leaving 36mm motors in history for P sized boats. They are sick of warranting and paying for under sized motors, just as we should be.

As far as RTR being able to be squeezed into the class. That's just an extra benefit. much like it was when P-Limited rules where originally written.

And my thought is not to have P-Limited be similar to Open-P. If we limit the ESC to 120 amp, then the prop sizes will self limit (just as they do now) and the P-Limited boats will not be capable of reaching the Open-P speeds.
IOW... if people want to push prop size (the way they do now) they will burn up an $83 speedo instead of an $80 motor.

[Darin Jordan]

That is not my intension at all. My intention is to move to the next step in this hobby and stop burning up motors. Which is probably why RTR boats are leaving 36mm motors in history for P sized boats. They are sick of warranting and paying for under sized motors, just as we should be.

Being just a LITTLE bit involved in the RTR industry, I can assure you that they are NOT moving on for that reason... they are moving on because they want their 40mph boats to be able to easily do 50mph out of the box.

It's performance based.

[Doby]

Dave..let it go...if people continue to burn up motors of the "limited" (AQ/TP/whatever) size, they need to look into the mirror to see why that is.

This class is by far the most popular (fun) of any..be it mono/hydro/cat/ lawnchair...whatever...having lots of boats racing at "slower" speeds is a lot more fun than fewer boats at faster speeds.

[Doby]

Being just a LITTLE bit involved in the RTR industry, I can assure you that they are NOT moving on for that reason... they are moving on because they want their 40mph boats to be able to easily do 50mph out of the box.

It's performance based.

Exactly. Just like Apple introducing a new phone every 3 weeks for the minions to buy because it has some new feature that somehow people lived without for years....

People want faster and shinier RTRs to brag about to their beer drinking buddies....how many people who buy RTRs actually race them?? Proboat and AQ care about profits...can't blame them, everyone does.

[dethow]

The point is that these motors ARE available.

Correction... these motor WILL BE available (because we ask for them).

Not available NOW (because no one wants them).

And so our only two sources will be TP directly and OSE. Maybe Kintec will catch on and start stocking them as well.

I'm sorry I'm going to get out of this conversation. Because you've already made it clear you will NEVER be convinced otherwise and I tend to get the same impression from others. Like I said... I guess we'll have this conversation in a couple years. Probably about the same time this new list is implemented (2017) it will become more obvious to everyone that 36mm motors are as old school as brushed motors.

There are other ways to limit the class....

[Darin Jordan]

I'll give Dave this, however, concerning motor availability:

The TP motors, thus far, are clearly the most readily available.

This is why I wanted to leave specific motors out, and just define a dimensional limitation of up to, and including, 36x60mm... Lots of readily available motors in the 36x50, or 36x58, or even 28x58, etc... sizes... that would be well within the performance envelope of this class.

Whatever gets "spec'd", we have to make sure that people can ACTUALLY get them.

OR, we limit it to those that we actually can, in this case, TP... which puts us right back to a single thread supply.

[dethow]

And back on topic of the list and leaving the 40mm stuff in the past...


Darin, I too originally liked your dimensional limitations. But those parameters would open the door for a few Neu, Lehner and Typhoon motors.

Selfishly, I thought "great I'll go buy a $200 Neu motor and be able to run at 50mph (in my mono and cat) with little to no risk of burning it up."

But that door opening will just have guys pushing the limits of THOSE motors and hitting speeds close to 55mph which will force people to start spending big dollars on a motor or run 5 to 10 mph slower and non-competitive.

To twist the knife a little... allowing these high priced motors in limited class is more damaging then allowing cheap 40mm motors. Speeds of an expensive 36mm motor (with an unlimited esc) wouldn't be far off those of a cheap 40mm (with a 120a esc limit). But with the expensive 36mm motors you are cutting out the guys who can't spend $200 on a motor and $200 on a large amp esc to push it near 55mph.

Just saying... everyone can afford an $85 40mm motor and an $83 120amp speedo. And then everyone can do 50 to 55mph in P-Limited, while Open-P speeds will be in the 60 to 65 mph range where hull design, tuning and driving skills becomes more important to keep it on the water.

LOL... zipper has now been installed on my mouth. (Maybe )

[dethow]

Being just a LITTLE bit involved in the RTR industry, I can assure you that they are NOT moving on for that reason... they are moving on because they want their 40mph boats to be able to easily do 50mph out of the box.

It's performance based.

Sorry Darin... you say patato and I say pototo.

They want their 40mph RTR boats increased to 50mph because they (manufactures) are probably tied of us (racers) increasing prop sizes to get the 50mph we (racers) want and burning up motors in the process. Of which those motors are being sent back for warranty and thus costing them (manufactures) money. Cure... put a 40mm motor (that costs the same) in the boat and we (racers) won't burn them up as much trying to get to speeds that the hull is capable of handling.