P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[T.S.Davis]

You want to run your DF26... Someone else wants to run their 32" Pursuit...

How about a DF29, a Pursuit, a Thomas, and a Mystic? Same motor in all 4 boats. Each with a little different wangle on the props.

[Darin Jordan]

How about a DF29, a Pursuit, a Thomas, and a Mystic? Same motor in all 4 boats. Each with a little different wangle on the props.

Then you aren't going fast enough...

Single motor doesn't satisfy the supply and quality issues. Sorry, it just doesn't. They might be good today, but then, so was the AQ 2030 at one point...

And, just for the record, I'm NOT for "Centralized Government Control" either...

[longballlumber]

Only 13 of those are available to purchase.

Understood – Why do we continue to add them to a list if they we’ve confirmed they are not available? It just muddies up the water.

Show us the way. This is still an open conversation. There is no proposal or anything etched in stone. We were talking about having guys hunt down their own motors based on dims and weight a couple pages ago.

Again, I understand that is why I am still conversing

No attitude intended BTW. I would still be on board with a single motor.

IF equal performance IS the objective then I would support this. The ultimate method of maintaining a level playing field is to eliminate (minimize) as many PERFORMACE variables as possible. One motor sure makes it easier for those entering the hobby (flatter learning curve), and helps manage perception. However, I am not sure a single motor solution would be accepted among the entire membership.

On the topic of "parity"... Riddle me this... ONE motor...
You want to run your DF26... Someone else wants to run their 32" Pursuit...
Where is the "parity" with a single motor??

DF26 is an exception to the rule, sort of speak. I would venture to suspect if someone is going to try and run a 26” hull in a class the routinely has 29”-30” hulls;
#1 knows what they are getting themselves into and is accepting the challenge per the given limitations.
#2 probably has more than one hull at their disposal.

Single-Hull classes... is that what we want? (rhetorical... I sure don't)
The number of motors listed is simply trying to match the KVs we currently have available, which is a formula we all seemed to agree made for a good selection of motors.

IF the objective is to have lots of choices; then by all means put the 37 motor list back together. All of these decisions are going to have consequences

[Darin Jordan]

Understood – Why do we continue to add them to a list if they we’ve confirmed they are not available? It just muddies up the water.

Mike, if we remove them from this list, then everyone's current setups become non-compliant for the class. We can't just remove them.

IF equal performance IS the objective then I would support this.

It doesn't address the 1) Supply issues, or 2) Quality (continuous quality) issues. And it only provides "parity" if everyone is running the same hull.

DF26 is an exception to the rule, sort of speak.

First, I disagree... AS recently as 2012 they were the boat to have in P-LTD Mono and even in Offshore. This was but one example of a smaller hull I was using to illustrate a larger point. If you specify a motor, which would likely be the 1950 since everyone is so obsessed with KV, then the classes will eventually migrate to "one hull" classes as people figure out exactly which hull compliments that motor the best. Our club, for example, might as well call P-LTD Sport "Spec-FE30"... highly annoying. It's all going to come down, just like always, to everyone chasing after and running whatever the top guys are running, because that's the "best" hull to have. Is that kind of restrictive class structure really what we're after? Guess that comes back to the intent question.

IF the objective is to have lots of choices; then by all means put the 37 motor list back together. All of these decisions are going to have consequences

My objective would be to have a LIMITED amount of choices. I don't consider 9 motors "a lot"... It's 3 different manufactures, each supplying three different KVs. All the motors put out the same amount of power (watts), they just have different "sweet spots".

To me, that says that putting together a winning package should be possible with any of the 9 options.

[Ken Haines]

I just want to reiterate.....I am still happy with continuing to use the current list of P-Ltd motors
until AQ & PB stop supplying them entirely.

That being said if we need to add additional motors due to the end of the current supply,
and since I was the voice asking about the TFL motors in the RTR Pursuits, is the 1620Kv
motor actually one of those on the list ? The 1620Kv is the one currently being installed,
so we really need to look at all the RTR offerings by any source. Of course also if their supplied
motor after careful testing is determined less than or equal to the power of the current standard listed motors.
Again......Just my opinion

[longballlumber]

Mike, if we remove them from this list, then everyone's current setups become non-compliant for the class. We can't just remove them.

I was speaking from a current conversation standpoint. Ultimately, I understand they will be on the “approved” list for the NAMBA rule book. Honestly they should probably be in a separate table of motors that are “grandfathered” in. Regardless, the proper wording will get ironed out at a later date.

It doesn't address the 1) Supply issues, or 2) Quality (continuous quality) issues. And it only provides "parity" if everyone is running the same hull.

No matter how many rules you put in place; Supply Issues and/or Quality Issues are completely out of our control (the racers). We’ve already experienced that. I understand the thought process; we are protecting ourselves with lots of options in case the motor we all (80% rule) end up using falters because of something out of our control. That is EXACTLY why I asked about INTENT!!!! So far we are attempting to avoid another AquaCraft 2030 issue. That has been #1 regarding intent all along only no one put it in writing.

I disagree with your vision of “parity”. There are plenty of variables in boat building/tuning, batteries, controllers, and props that will allow you to have a minimal choice of motors and be competitive (notice I didn’t say one). That’s why props are not “limited”. I refuse to accept that any one particular hull won’t be competitive because of a motor limitation. It’s all about orchestrating a concert not a one man band.

First, I disagree... AS recently as 2012 they were the boat to have in P-LTD Mono and even in Offshore. This was but one example of a smaller hull I was using to illustrate a larger point. If you specify a motor, which would likely be the 1950 since everyone is so obsessed with KV, then the classes will eventually migrate to "one hull" classes as people figure out exactly which hull compliments that motor the best. Our club, for example, might as well call P-LTD Sport "Spec-FE30"... highly annoying. It's all going to come down, just like always, to everyone chasing after and running whatever the top guys are running, because that's the "best" hull to have. Is that kind of restrictive class structure really what we're after? Guess that comes back to the intent question.

Your example is happening right now WITH motor options. How are more options going to change this? Fast guys are still going to be fast; one motor or 37 motors. For the record, I am not for or against one motor. In theory I like it, but I know it’s not what the entire ORG will approve for a national class. With that being said, I think add 9 more motors to the list (making 13 total) would be excessive because it offers too many choices in the name of balanced performance.

My objective would be to have a LIMITED amount of choices. I don't consider 9 motors "a lot"... It's 3 different manufactures, each supplying three different KVs. All the motors put out the same amount of power (watts), they just have different "sweet spots".

To me, that says that putting together a winning package should be possible with any of the 9 options.

I will back off from here on out…

[Darin Jordan]

I will back off from here on out…

I wish you wouldn't.... You raise important questions and a lot of good points.

[T.S.Davis]

Mike does have a point. Do we need consider the new..er guy a little more here so he has a shot?

Currently there are two motors really (80% rule again). Proboat has none. They're all discontinued. Sure you could run a Himax and figure it our but a new guy?........not gonna happen. He doesn't have a bushel basket of props and couldn't modify one either. No offense to new guy.

So at the moment someone looking to get going chooses between the AQ2030 and the AQ1800. Two! Pretty easy pick'ns. Boat runs light maybe a 2030. Boat needs more blade in the water maybe the 1800. If we add 9 that gives them 11 and they have to figure it out. Right prop, right hull, right strut, shmooze it, rub, it caress it, put it on a pedestal next to your bed and dream about it. What ever your process is.

Can new guy do all that? I know we want both new guy and veteran to run together but new guy has a pretty steep learning curve and is emptying out his wallet along the way.

Maybe just two from each new manufacturer? IDK. Something similar to a 2030 and similar to an 1800 form each manufacturer. Thinking being that it's the same choice that we're already making......2030 or 1800. Just have to pick your manufacturer.

Thinking out loud here.

[T.S.Davis]

Yes I know the 1700 is available but it's rarely the best choice.

[dethow]

I like the TP and Leopards. For ME... the main reason to add SSS to the list would be to include the motor that TFL is putting in the ARTR Pursuit and Apparition. But you have not included that 1620kv motor in the list so I see no point to having SSS on the list.

Furthermore, I can not seem to find a single one these SSS motors currently available for sale on OSE, Kintec, RC Boat Bitz, eBay, or Amazon. I asked this earlier and no one answered my. Where exactly does one find these motors??? If TFL themselves are our only source... you are just adding a hard to get your hands on motor which defeats the purpose here. Thought we were proposing to add some motors due to a future supply problem for some on the existing list?

Mike B. does have some good points and I think those points could be resolved with a happy medium. One motor will not work and not be promoted by national membership. Three brands with nine new choices may be a little much. Then add in that the SS motor are not easy to get, other then the 1620kv. But then again I can't find a replacement SSS 1620kv on Hobbyking or anywhere else, so what does one do if they fry that motor.

My vote would be for the existing plus addition of the three TP and three Leopards. If you really think we need more then six, find a different brand. I don't think SSS will accomplish anything. But I personally feel six additional would be enough for now.

[dethow]

Maybe just two from each new manufacturer? IDK. Something similar to a 2030 and similar to an 1800 form each manufacturer. Thinking being that it's the same choice that we're already making......2030 or 1800. Just have to pick your manufacturer.

I also agree with Terry's thought to only having the two from each being in the 1800 to 2030 range. I didn't want to say anything because I don't know if there are guys out there running 1500kv motors for a particular setup. I can say that I don't think there is a single person running a 1500 in MMEU. Most are running the 2030 and those running the 1800 either change over to the 2030 if the motor goes, or they are running the 1800 by choice. I personally run an 1800 in my River Cat/Apparition on an M545 and run a 2030 in everything else. Except my MMEU SV27 which is limited to the 1800 only.

[Darin Jordan]

The brands were selected partially based on 1) EVERYONE seems to have wanted to try Doug's TP motors, and 2), the brands that OSE has a line on, that aren't higher quality than desired for this class.

If motors are approved, do you NOT think that OSE will stock them??

[Darin Jordan]

I can say that I don't think there is a single person running a 1500 in MMEU.

I don't know about MMEU, but I can promise you that there was more than one National's Podium finish with a boat running a 1500.

Offshore boats like 1500s....

PT Stealths like 1500s...

YOU guys are FIXATED on KV. I just don't get it.

And I'm not buying this "keep it simple for the newbie" argument. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you guys can tie your own shoes but you can't pick one of 9 motors from a list? Seriously?? Or, even simpler, make a post and ask the same question that a HUNDRED "newbies" ask on this forum everyday, when they DON'T have the benefit of a local racing club to guide them, to pick one BRAND off the list (most likely the cheapest one, based on how FE boaters think), and then pick the right KV for a 4S boat running either 2-minutes or 4-Minutes?

Sorry, guys... I'm just not buying that the average person, let alone the average boater, is really that naive, and, if they are, won't have help available.

It's three KVs and three manufacturers, guys. Come on... You make it sound like this is so complicated. It's not...

[T.S.Davis]

haha I finally pushed Darin to the edge.

[Doby]

Like Darin said.....Its not complicated......get your heads out of your KV thinking butts.

Also, it sounds like some folks are trying to ensure that Newbies are standing on the podium on their first racing event.

Not going to happen, even if you only spec one motor..not going to happen...there is a substantial learning curve that newbies should expect themselves to go through and it has nothing to do with the Kv of a motor. Anyone else on here remember their first time on a race course. I suppose you all finished on the podium that day