P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[ron1950]

there are only about 5 people that even care about all this crap...everyone ive talked to said if it came to a vote they will vote to keep existing rule as is on motors....

[RandyatBBY]

Something like the talked about spec would help me ( a very low budget racer) find a motor that would be legal and in my miniscule racing budget

This is where the $100.00 cap and not having a mile long list of motors will help.

[RandyatBBY]

there are only about 5 people that even care about all this crap...everyone ive talked to said if it came to a vote they will vote to keep existing rule as is on motors....

Not true, if it does not happen racers will drop out and race what appears to be more affordable classes. IE Gas classes.

[Darin Jordan]

This is where the $100.00 cap and not having a mile long list of motors will help.

Randy...

1) HOW do you enforce that?
2) HOW does that help with the "Quality" issue?
3) WHAT is it solving?

Remember, my idea here is to NOT have a Motor List... Racers should be able to think for themselves.

[RandyatBBY]

Randy...

1) HOW do you enforce that?
2) HOW does that help with the "Quality" issue?
3) WHAT is it solving?

Remember, my idea here is to NOT have a Motor List... Racers should be able to think for themselves.

A shorter list of motors after testing by high level panel of racers. (for lack of better name) I am for the list just want to help keep it from being a $$$war. That is good for suppliers, bad for the sport/P LTD racers.

[LuckyDuc]

I personally will be looking to build P power class boats going forward... Maybe a Q for giggles. I will keep my Ltd boats around to support my local club level racing, but like Howard and Dave N., I will be looking to other power classes in the future.

Sean

[Darin Jordan]

there are only about 5 people that even care about all this crap...

I'm sure that's not the case...

I personally will be looking to build P power class boats going forward... Maybe a Q for giggles. I will keep my Ltd boats around to support my local club level racing, but like Howard and Dave N., I will be looking to other power classes in the future.

Sean

I talk to Brian regularly and we've talked about doing the same thing, especially since my involvement in anything P-LTD seems to raise so many people's hackle feathers....

But, it keeps coming back to one simple fact: You HAVE to have people in that class to race with. One or two others racing in P-Hydro doesn't make it that much fun. And, it cost a LOT more money to race those classes. So....

[rightturnonly]

Here's my two cents..

While I understand about not having a motor list. I think we should look at it from the new boater point of view. When I got back into boating a couple of years ago I had experience from the 70's on the nitro side but had no clue on anything electric. Having the motor list helped when looking at what was legal. Maybe we could have a list of motors but more of an information list of what fits the parameters set in the rules. Something that could be updated as needed..the NAMBA web site is something we could/should use to our advantage. We're on the right track...

John

[T.S.Davis]

Ron, sure keep it the same. Then when/if AQ goes the direction that PB is with more power the source for the existing spec will vanish. Those guys will just quit racing I guess.

Whiiiiich has just made a new problem occurr to me.

The direction of the RTR market. The success of the P limited classes has piggy backed off the success of the RTR market. Again, subject to debate but I think the vast majority agree on that.

With this potential motor spec we've been discussing we're trying to encompass the existing motors so that everyone can keep running what they have. Additionally, the thinking being that a RTR guy could run what he bought at the LHS. Accept...........that's not going to happen. The new spec will receive no benefit from the RTR market or the local hobby shops. Not if all the RTR's are now 10 mph faster running 40mm motors. So now we'll have tell new guy that just spent X dollars on his boat that if he wants to race he has to drop down 10mph and run a less powerful motor. To which he's going to say "eh, sounds like a snore. Never mind".

Not sure where to go from here.

[LuckyDuc]

Ron, sure keep it the same. Then when/if AQ goes the direction that PB is with more power the source for the existing spec will vanish. Those guys will just quit racing I guess.

Whiiiiich has just made a new problem occurr to me.

The direction of the RTR market. The success of the P limited classes has piggy backed off the success of the RTR market. Again, subject to debate but I think the vast majority agree on that.

With this potential motor spec we've been discussing we're trying to encompass the existing motors so that everyone can keep running what they have. Additionally, the thinking being that a RTR guy could run what he bought at the LHS. Accept...........that's not going to happen. The new spec will receive no benefit from the RTR market or the local hobby shops. Not if all the RTR's are now 10 mph faster running 40mm motors. So now we'll have tell new guy that just spent X dollars on his boat that if he wants to race he has to drop down 10mph and run a less powerful motor. To which he's going to say "eh, sounds like a snore. Never mind".

Not sure where to go from here.

Assuming the "new" RTRs are 4 cell lipo and the hull dimensions are within the allowable measurements... The P class is where they should be directed.

[Darin Jordan]

Maybe we could have a list of motors but more of an information list of what fits the parameters

I think I mentioned above (WAY above??) the concept of the rule being defined by the specs, but a separate, semi-official list be provided that listed all of the known motors that fit the specs. That would be an excellent way to move forward. A very nice "compromise", if you will.

Again, IF you list it in the rules, you HAVE to have a way to tech it... IF you make an official motor list, you HAVE to have a way to verify that those are the motors being used.

AND, you are at the behest of the suppliers, bringing in availability, quality, and all the other issues that have been complained about and are associated with such.

AND you have to revisit the rules regularly as supplies change or sources change.

Just seems like a lot of extra work for no real benefit.

If racers want to be TOLD what to run, don't their local club members already do that??

[Darin Jordan]

Not sure where to go from here.

RTR "Run-What-Ya-Brung" beginners class... Local Rules, only the novices, only said RTR style boats. Give-em a trophy at the end of the day. If they are serious about racing, they'll soon move that direction.

WHO really leaves there RTR and RTR anyhow??

[dethow]

With this potential motor spec we've been discussing we're trying to encompass the existing motors so that everyone can keep running what they have. Additionally, the thinking being that a RTR guy could run what he bought at the LHS. Accept...........that's not going to happen. The new spec will receive no benefit from the RTR market or the local hobby shops. Not if all the RTR's are now 10 mph faster running 40mm motors. So now we'll have tell new guy that just spent X dollars on his boat that if he wants to race he has to drop down 10mph and run a less powerful motor. To which he's going to say "eh, sounds like a snore. Never mind".

And I think this is where I do question why even go through this change. Maybe the answer is to just run P-Limited like it is until it becomes a snore because the RTR boats are running faster and people lost interest in limited. It seems that based on where RTR appears to be heading there will be a nature progression as follows:

1.) As more RTR versions with 40mm motors are bought by both new people and experienced racers the local clubs will start to run more P classes to include them.

2.) As more guys see these run they may choose to pick up a new RTR version 40mm motor to throw in their existing boat they have been running in P-Limited. I assume these new RTR 40mm motors won't end up costing much more then the existing 36mm motors. Maybe a jump from $75-80 to $90-100.

3.) The existing supply of defined Limited motors will dry up and P-Limited classes will become less and less run at clubs.

4.) As P classes get more competitive and clubs have guys spending the bigger dollars on motors, the RTR 40mm motors may not be able to compete.

5.) At the point we have more RTR 40mm motors available the Limited class rules get changed to a defined list of 40mm RTR versions so these people still have a place to race and be competitive.

Meanwhile... clubs will manage on there own to make sure there are any RTR classes necessary for their local beginners to get out and have fun.

Final thought is based on Terry's idea of things being a snore... Won't the P-Limited class get boring once more of these faster RTR boats hit the market? Why would someone take a 40mm motor out of a 50mph boat and drop to 45mph to run a limited class? And at the same time, that person doesn't have the money to compete with the expensive motors and speedos in the P class. This issue WILL have to be addressed in 3 to 4 years. Maybe as soon as 2 years.
Are we keeping something alive that is just going to naturally go away anyway? I said earlier that P-Limited should just be abolished but I think that will happen on its own. If we want to save P-Limited I think patients may be the way to go until the 40mm RTR become more prevalent and we need to change the limited class to include them so that they have a place to run without having to compete with $300 to $400 Neu motors with massive amp speedos.

[LuckyDuc]

This brings us full circle back to Mike Ball's original question... "What is the intent of the P-Ltd class"?

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah I know but it comes back around to that ease of entry thing. I'm afraid we're veering to far away from that.

We've gained participation by making it as easy as possible for a guy to go race. We wrote the spec trying to tap into the RTR market. It was a perfect storm. We were running the gear and it was working for the most part. The RTR's fit right in and were in the ball park speed wise. Took some tweaking but they were competitive. They even win. MCup results are proof.

The new rtr's could run in a novice class but I'm not sure that's the best approach. I know our little club is just one of many but it's not uncommon for a newer racer to be out on the pond with 3 of the top 10 nationals points guys. Then when they beat those guys in a heat......priceless. That's enough to make them realize....."hey, any fool can do this stuff". It's part of the appeal of the classes I think. They're hooked. They want more of that!

We could direct them to P as Sean mentioned but that's provided you already have P running.

Am I alone on my tangential peninsula here? It's almost feeling like if AQ moves away from 36mm motors then the relationship between RTR's and "limited" the way we think of it is over. Easy entry from RTR's ends. We're officially on our own at that point. Could be okay I guess but is that what we want?

I'm really struggling with this.

We're gearing up for a potential change. Part of the change is revolving around the existing offerings and keeping them viable. Namely those RTR setups that made the class what it is. But those very RTR's are evolving right out from under the spec. The influx we experience from the "off the shelf" boats wont happen if the off the shelf boats are faster than what we're running. The new/next generation RTR's (what ever that means) will be the real draw and we'll be having this debate again. "Put me in the newb class, the boats are faster"

Is it time for us all to put on our big boy pants and run P? Somebody talk me down here please. hahaha