P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[ray schrauwen]

Not true. Neu as I've pointed out has had a 36mm x 58mm 1850 kv motor selling for $50 US for over a year. Falls within specs of other motors mentioned.

http://neumotors.cartloom.com/shop/item/25324

Put a $150 cap on them. That keeps the Lehners, Neus, Hackers, Kontroniks, Megas etc. out of the mix but allows just about any asian alternative you'd care to run.

[photohoward1]

Ray probably to small. I would venture it would get to hot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fas]

ok my 2 cents


1) Doug send me one of the motors I will beat the dog snot out of it to help with the fact finding
2) I must of missed something last year between a few people
3) I like where this is going we need to come up with something
4) Davis with NAMBA you don't have to tech every motor only the ones that people file a protest on they need to put up they money or shut up, ask a few people who said something at the Nats we held. never got any money or heard a word from them again.
5) I am the only all FE guy that is on the BOD for NAMBA that I know of

to get it in the books we need to test more then just one motor that fall in the spec's that Darin has I like the idea, a few from across the US each takes a different motor and then one guy from each area get with the other and put it one paper and send it in

If you guys would like I would be willing to be the point of contact on this to put it on paper and get it in

Doug, Darin, Terry, Ray ,you guys up for this, who else could we use



I would like to know how to kind out the kv of a motor I am still in the dark age

Fred

[Darin Jordan]

Just to clarify something for those of you fixated on KV....

Given 2 identical dimensioned motors, when you change KV you are only changing the "sweet spot", otherwise known as the point at which you can prop it for a given setup before overloading it. The two motors still put out similar "power". This is why Ray and Terry and Pags and I have had good success running 1800 and 1500 motors. You just have to know how to prop them.

Having a KV limit at all is really just a "feel good" insertion to the limits in my opinion. The KV max is really self limiting, given the physical limitations of the motor AND the hull size limits.

Is someone REALLY going to run a 33" mono on 4S with a 2400, 2600, 3000 KV motor? Not for long they won't, and certainly not with a prop that will make it competitive or faster than a more reasonable 1800 or similar setup.

It would come into play for records, so the KV limit makes sense there.

Anyhow, if you read the suggestion carefully, you'll see that all of the measurements are actual. Manufacturer's specs are for reference only. The onus is placed on the competitor to assure that their equipment is legal, JUST LIKE IN NITRO. If legality comes into question, actual measurements are used, again, JUST LIKE NITRO.

[T.S.Davis]

Make it 2k then. Size and weight are the real limiting factors.

Surely somebody here knows how to engineer an accurate kV checker.

I'm willing to test something but I'm not sure its needed.

[NativePaul]

Darin, what is your reasoning behind no sensored motors and no motors with adjustable timing? We do not need torque from a standstill like some cars do, and which is the only advantage for sensored systems. As I see it for our uses the sensors just take up space in the can, meaning a given can size will have a smaller rotor in it which is a disadvantage. With sensorless we have dynamic adjustable timing in the ESCs anyway, so why rule out another more basic way to adjust timing. Cars are the most popular form of RC racing so banning the types of motors they use seems like it would limit people crossing over for no reason.

I don't understand baring 2 pole motors either, as some of the cheapest motors available have 2 poles and have been for some time, there are probably plenty of people with otherwise legal Feiago motors sitting in draws. If you want to ban Lehners just ban them specifically, along with the other premium motors like Neu and Plettenberg.

[DPeterson]

Fred - Cost me around 3 grand to get 100 TP motors sent out for evaluation. That's my limit. Pretty sure there are 4-5 TP motors already in the hands of your club members. I dropped my NAMBA membership so it would be improper for me to participate in your actual rule proposal development. There are a number of IMPBA clubs yet that are unwilling to do their own homework and just simply adopt NAMBA P-Limited rules for there use. This influence causes us to voice our opinion across the Association lines. Here in IMPBA D4 we have already addressed the motor issues and are experiencing success in expanding our guidelines into surrounding Districts and Clubs. Small piece of advice - proactive management always trumps reactive management.

For the record - It keeps being said that this is my motor. It's not. This motor was suggested by a fellow OSE forum member that it may be a good substitute for the AQ 2030. Turns out it was. That's it. As time goes on we are looking forward to testing other brands.

So now we are up to $125.00 MSRP and 2050 KV. Highend RC Typhoon anyone. This is up from an $80.00 motor with a true KV of around 1950. I guess if I was a SAW guy I would be licking my chops too. 1500 more rpm's to the prop. Slap a stock prop on and start writing your name in the P-limited record book. P-Limited records - another big a$$ mistake.

Other than physical specifications, there are no methods available to validate KV and performance of a motor other than data logging on the water. This is where it counts anyway. The eye opener for me was watching Sean Kewely do the Eagle Tree data logging comparison with 3 runs on the AQ 2030 and 3 runs on the TP 3630. The data shows the actual comparison on water without bias. He posted this for everyone to see. I am sure some of you missed this, some of you forgot it and some of you ignored it. The only thing that will convince me of any motor being compatible for P-Limited going forward will be this data logging. Do yourself a favor and find a techy person to show you this. No theories, no inflated or deflated manufacture numbers, just on the water performance facts. Find 3 tech guys from various parts of the Country to do this, compare the data and you have your Tech committee. Oh wait - too simple and fair.

[ray schrauwen]

Larry Jaques has a physical rpm gauge that you touch the shaft with. His gauge is accurate but, I've never tried to use it on a motor, he has a while back in the SS1 motor days. I'll try to see if he still has that thing and check some motors.

[T.S.Davis]

So now we are up to $125.00 MSRP and 2050 KV. Highend RC Typhoon anyone. This is up from an $80.00 motor with a true KV of around 1950. I guess if I was a SAW guy I would be licking my chops too. 1500 more rpm's to the prop. Slap a stock prop on and start writing your name in the P-limited record book. P-Limited records - another big a$$ mistake.

We aren't anywhere Doug. We're having a conversation. Tossing around ideas. Those of us that know you are catching your implication though.

The $ limit was suggested by me. I'm the guy that would prefer there to be ONE motor. Debate ends.

[Doby]

For the record - It keeps being said that this is my motor. It's not.
.

Sorry Dougee, it is "your motor" as you were the one who pushed to get it out to the masses for testing etc..and don't take that the wrong way...its a great start, and needed to be done

[ray schrauwen]

The manufacturers' Kv ratings are often a joke. The actual Kv of the AQ2030 motor is closer to 1950, as you have found. With manufacturing tolerances and even different factories making the same model number motor, a motor's actual Kv will vary anyway. But Kv changes with voltage and load, the best way to measure the exact Kv of your motor is with a data logger on your setup.




.

Which data logger is the most accurate? How do we know how accurate it is?

[Brushless55]

Since we are going down the HK road. I like this: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...90mm_EDF_.html

It has skewed windings similar to a NEU or HET. Very smooth 4 pole motor. I have one and I should give it a go. People have pushed it on 6s and find it's pretty tough.

That is an interesting motor !
would fit like an AQ2030

[macace123]

WOW this is some good stuff y'all. FYI i was at the Nats 2 weeks ago. the only reason anyone was burning up AQ2030 is, one it was way to hot. 2 the pond was packed with algae and other blods of green goo. I however am a fan of just keeping the motors to a size or weight spec. KV is nothing to worry about i got chewed up by 1500kv motors the whole time i was there. Also had to prop down 3 sizes that was the biggest challenge.


I Feel there is going to be a Big change coming on this motor debacle.

[rayzerdesigns]

WOW this is some good stuff y'all. FYI i was at the Nats 2 weeks ago. the only reason anyone was burning up AQ2030 is, one it was way to hot. 2 the pond was packed with algae and other blods of green goo. I however am a fan of just keeping the motors to a size or weight spec. KV is nothing to worry about i got chewed up by 1500kv motors the whole time i was there. Also had to prop down 3 sizes that was the biggest challenge.


I Feel there is going to be a Big change coming on this motor debacle.

wonder who would run a slow 1500..lol..cant wait for some cool water up there next year

[Darin Jordan]

Sooooo....

On the thought of spec'ing a single motor for P-LTD :

Pros:
1) Cut and dried as far as which motor you'll use.
2) Can Select a motor with acceptable quality.
3) Can control cost to purchase.
4) Fairly easy to tech.
5) Everyone has the exact same motor.
Cons:
1) Ties supply to a single supplier
2) No guarantee of sustained quality
3) Single KV available, limits variation of suitable hulls
4) No guarantee of sustained supply.
5) Will require periodic if not frequent revisiting of motor selection.

Any other Pros/Cons you can think of?