Limited spec mono

[J Solinger]

OM26 is my favorite in lsm.

How about hulls that look correct, no flood tanks, but are self righting anyway?

[LuckyDuc]

I'll take the responsibility/blame for this, and would like to discuss it a bit further because it's coming up frequently as more are hitting the water. Self-righting boats have many advantages, but in National or Sanctioned racing, I have legitimate concerns that I have seen/heard personally on the drivers stand.

This isn't opinion.

1) It's confusing to the other racers on the drivers stand. It is inevitable for the driver or his pitman of a SRB (self-righting boat) to say, "it will flip over!....wait for it!" It's heard by other drivers...then they panic about where the dead boat is...or isn't. And, this can happen multiple times in 1 heat.

2) SRB's require an unfair amount of the CD's time. "Dead boat at turn 1...wait....no, it's going again. Dead boat again at turn 2...no, wait, it's going again". See #1 above as the CD is speaking this into the microphone. And, again, I'm not making this up. It has happened multiple times in heat racing.

3) Unfair advantage to the other racers. Yes-properly designed SRB's are a better mousetrap, but items 1 and 2 have to be taken into consideration as well when racing.

4) Now this is my opinion, but SRB's to not fit the "spirit" of the Offshore rules. Real offshore boats aren't self-righting.

In effort to make sanctioned/national racing fair to all racers and to make sure the CD's time isn't disproportionally spent on any one type of boat, I made some pretty strong recommendations to the CD's at recent National races. Now, I do want to be inclusive as possible and recommend allowing SRB's to race, but the SRB drivers have to be aware, actually overly aware of what I said above and race their boats as if there is no self-righting ability. In fact, disable the feature if possible. Call themselves dead if their boat is righted by its self-righting design and leave the boat on the race course until the heat is finished. Do not hog the CDs time or create confusion to other drivers.

If they don't, the alternative won't be as inclusive come race day. I would really like to avoid this, if possible.

I like your train of thought on this David.

For those RACING self righting boats, be aware!

We understand why you like these boats, and we appreciate the engineering that goes into them, it is REALLY cool, BUT it can not be tolerated in heat racing at sanctioned events.

If you want to keep racing your self-righting boats, figure out a way to disable that feature for heat racing at sanctioned events.

[LuckyDuc]

Testing a boat's self righting ability should be straight forward. Correct? Turn the boat upside down, set it in the water, if it flips over, it is a self-righter.

[Doby]

Ok, as I race with someone who runs several self-righting boats and I'm sure that some of these comments are as a result of the recent race many of us attended, I have to ask...why the issue if the rules state nothing about them being illeagal?

[LuckyDuc]

Ok, as I race with someone who runs several self-righting boats and I'm sure that some of these comments are as a result of the recent race many of us attended, I have to ask...why the issue if the rules state nothing about them being illeagal?

Because of what was stated in this post: http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...875#post367875

[DPeterson]

Here are IMPBA rules concerning SRB's. IMO - not sufficient. Dave's post says it best.

J-4 Fast electrics
In addition to the IMPBA racing rules the following racing rules will also apply
to fast electric.
1. During a race start, a boat cannot stop. Doing so will result in a one
lap penalty. A boat will be considered as stopped when,
a. the boat falls off plane or step allowing the bow to settle into the
water.
b.turns upside down for any reason even if it is a self-righting boat.
c. a “barrel roll”, “end over end flip” or “spin” is not a stopping
infraction unless the boat fails to continue forward motion but
maybe grounds for a lane infraction.
2. Once the race has started, a boat that stops for any reason will be
called as a stopped boat by the contest director and allowed a five
count to continue racing. At the contest directors discretion, a stopped
boat may immediately be called as a dead boat if warranted. A
stopped boat that fails to continue racing after the five count will now
be called as a dead boat. A boat that stops three or more times during a
heat will be assessed as a dead boat for the heat. When a boat is called
as a ‘stopped boat’ it is also considered to be a ‘dead boat’, which
must be avoided by other boats on the water. When a stopped boat is
capable of resuming the race it must give ‘right of way’ to other boats
on the water as described in the Contest & Racing Rules.

DOBY - In the Offshore classes at the Northern Open the CD was either unaware of the rules, unable to apply the rules or chose not to apply the rules. ((( A boat that stops three or more times during a
heat will be assessed as a dead boat for the heat. ))) - This happened in most heats in P-Limited Offshore.

Doug

[Scott T]

We've been racing our version of P Limited Mono for about 3 years. 5 laps on a 200m-ish course, but we're restricted to SV27 and BJ26 motors and speed controls (we can mix and match). Competitive hulls include DF26 (and clones), OM26 and NS2. I used to run an OM26 and now run a Seaducer 29 (lightweight version). It's very quick and turns faster than the others.....but can be prone to the odd seadunk! I'm sure if I spent some time on it would be a bit more consistent, but I've ordered a DF29 and will give that a try next season.

[Doby]

OK, so opinions now take precedence over written and approved rules?

So.... Davis can cut and modify a prop better than me.....and you Sean can blueprint ride pad surfaces better than Davis, and Peterson can somehow through voodo magic keep a Tunnel hull on the water when the laws of physics says it shouldn't..... isn't everyone looking for their own way to get an edge over everyone else?

The CD of a race should abide by the rules as currently written. If people have issues with self righting boats, than the rules need to be changed.

Opinions mean nothing untill they are formally made into rules by the powers that be.

Personally, I like the idea that if a boat happens to flip and can right itself, then there's one less obstical on the course for others to worry about which should then make the poor CD's job easier.

I run against Chris's boats all season and have lost numerous races because of his "better mousetrap" designs. But I've also won races against his "mousetraps" as well.

I'm currently working on a selfrighting 1/8th scale hydro.

[Doby]

Here are IMPBA rules concerning SRB's. IMO - not sufficient. Dave's post says it best.

J-4 Fast electrics
In addition to the IMPBA racing rules the following racing rules will also apply
to fast electric.
1. During a race start, a boat cannot stop. Doing so will result in a one
lap penalty. A boat will be considered as stopped when,
a. the boat falls off plane or step allowing the bow to settle into the
water.
b.turns upside down for any reason even if it is a self-righting boat.
c. a “barrel roll”, “end over end flip” or “spin” is not a stopping
infraction unless the boat fails to continue forward motion but
maybe grounds for a lane infraction.
2. Once the race has started, a boat that stops for any reason will be
called as a stopped boat by the contest director and allowed a five
count to continue racing. At the contest directors discretion, a stopped
boat may immediately be called as a dead boat if warranted. A
stopped boat that fails to continue racing after the five count will now
be called as a dead boat. A boat that stops three or more times during a
heat will be assessed as a dead boat for the heat. When a boat is called
as a ‘stopped boat’ it is also considered to be a ‘dead boat’, which
must be avoided by other boats on the water. When a stopped boat is
capable of resuming the race it must give ‘right of way’ to other boats
on the water as described in the Contest & Racing Rules.

DOBY - In the Offshore classes at the Northern Open the CD was either unaware of the rules, unable to apply the rules or chose not to apply the rules. ((( A boat that stops three or more times during a
heat will be assessed as a dead boat for the heat. ))) - This happened in most heats in P-Limited Offshore.

Doug

Hi Doug:

When I go to the IMPBA website and click on the Rule Book link:

http://impba.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=132&Itemid=61

I don't see anything that you mention above.

[DPeterson]

Hey John

I copied this from a post Chris Harris put on the IMPBA forum. I guess the rules exist but for some reason, if I understand it correctly the rules on the Web site are not updated??

The SRB's at some point will be discussed in both NAMBA and IMPBA as far as rules go. There is an overwelming majority that do not agree with the SRB's in racing. Not sure when and I am in no hurry. I can tell you this. I have spoken with friends about attending the Northern Open on an annual basis, but am told that they will not spend time or money traveling to a race that allows SRB's.

Later - Doug

[DPeterson]

Terry

We ran it at the P shooter but nobody really had purpose built boats. They were just offshore boats with more prop. Petersons boat was of course rediculous. Fred was still figuring it out. Boat's fast now.

Was surprised myself on how well my P-Limited Offshore boat ran in the P-Limited Mono class. I guess for now I keep running my whore - I mean HOR. Nothing better than an unbalanced, dull and banged up stock prop.

Looks like I am headed for a rematch with Fred. :)

Doug

[Darin Jordan]

Doug... you may have to change your tag line, now that you guys are talking about rules...

[Doby]

Hey John

I copied this from a post Chris Harris put on the IMPBA forum. I guess the rules exist but for some reason, if I understand it correctly the rules on the Web site are not updated??

The SRB's at some point will be discussed in both NAMBA and IMPBA as far as rules go. There is an overwelming majority that do not agree with the SRB's in racing. Not sure when and I am in no hurry. I can tell you this. I have spoken with friends about attending the Northern Open on an annual basis, but am told that they will not spend time or money traveling to a race that allows SRB's.

Later - Doug

Hi Doug:
I've never looked on the IMPBA forums (preferring to go to the actual "published" rules book where most people would look to see what they can and can't do).

Why the heck can the rule book not be updated and then linked to on the main page?

If the actual rules have been changed, then there should not be a 2007 version of it on line for the world to see and cause ambiguity.

I really don't think its asking too much of the organizations to keep the rule books up to date.

Can anyone in the IMPBA explain the delay?

Its difficult to try and explain to Newbies who might want to get into racing what the rules are when their are so many different opinions out there.

Its actually a bit of an embarresment on the IMPBA (maybe NAMBA as well...I haven't looked at theirs in a while).

[LuckyDuc]

IMPBA should have a newly elected FE Director soon. I'm sure that person will chime in at some point.

[Steven Vaccaro]

"This isn't opinion.

1) It's confusing to the other racers on the drivers stand. It is inevitable for the driver or his pitman of a SRB (self-righting boat) to say, "it will flip over!....wait for it!" It's heard by other drivers...then they panic about where the dead boat is...or isn't. And, this can happen multiple times in 1 heat.

2) SRB's require an unfair amount of the CD's time. "Dead boat at turn 1...wait....no, it's going again. Dead boat again at turn 2...no, wait, it's going again". See #1 above as the CD is speaking this into the microphone. And, again, I'm not making this up. It has happened multiple times in heat racing.

3) Unfair advantage to the other racers. Yes-properly designed SRB's are a better mousetrap, but items 1 and 2 have to be taken into consideration as well when racing.

4) Now this is my opinion, but SRB's to not fit the "spirit" of the Offshore rules. Real offshore boats aren't self-righting.

In effort to make sanctioned/national racing fair to all racers and to make sure the CD's time isn't disproportionally spent on any one type of boat, I made some pretty strong recommendations to the CD's at recent National races. Now, I do want to be inclusive as possible and recommend allowing SRB's to race, but the SRB drivers have to be aware, actually overly aware of what I said above and race their boats as if there is no self-righting ability. In fact, disable the feature if possible. Call themselves dead if their boat is righted by its self-righting design and leave the boat on the race course until the heat is finished. Do not hog the CDs time or create confusion to other drivers.

If they don't, the alternative won't be as inclusive come race day. I would really like to avoid this, if possible. "

Although I can see where you are coming from, I have some problems.
First, being a long time advocate for self righting boats I can say there is a advantage. BUT there is also a VERY major disadvantage. You know that thing all you racers strive to get just right, Balance. Its impossible to balance our self righting boats. Thats a huge disadvantage.


Also Number 4, We are not racing real Offshore Boats. And if we wanted to fully adopt that line of thinking, ANY boat, once rolled/flipped even if it lands correctly should be disqualified. Because when was the last time you saw a 50' Mystic roll or flip and then keep going?