P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[Doby]

It can also be argued that there will never be "parity" in racing...the closest you get is what the Michigan Bozo's have done with the stock SV class, one boat, one motor, one ESC, one prop......but then again you have seasoned racers racing against kids/newbies.....where's the "parity" in that? The answer is there is none and never will be.

[Darin Jordan]

haha I finally pushed Darin to the edge.

Haha... note to self, they're just toy boats!

For what it's worth, if we were to limit the list, I'd choose one Manufacturer (TP) and the three KVs over Two Manufacturers with one KV each.

[rayzerdesigns]

I think ease of availability is a big issue..as terry stated..its hard to come by tfl stuff..and I have tested the tp3630 10d..that motor is def faster than a aq2030..i have run a 47mm prop on a mono in middle of summer here in az..with no temp problems..that is way bgger prop than can run with a 2030 in summer temps here

[ray schrauwen]

I'd still like to see the Turnigy SK-3 1900kv EDF motor on the list... 'cause I have one, lol...

[dethow]

I don't know about MMEU, but I can promise you that there was more than one National's Podium finish with a boat running a 1500.

Offshore boats like 1500s....

PT Stealths like 1500s...

And I did not know that... but now being informed I go back to being good with three TPs and three Leopards.
I am still not getting any feedback on where to actually buy these SSS motors. Since OSE only currently offers two SSS motors with both being larger 4074 and 4082, maybe we should hear directly from Steve that he will stock them if they are in the approved list. For that matter we need to confirm he will stock the TPs and Leopards as well. As of right now, the only new motor on the list that can be bought from either OSE or Kintec is the TP 1950kv.

And what does that really say...??? We are putting 9 motors on an approved list that apparently nobody currently likes because you can't find them anywhere.

A piece of me still feels like this issue should be waited on. Wait for the AQs to dry up and change the ENTIRE approved list to slightly larger motors with no attempting to match up to current ones approved. Once we can't get the AQs you won't get the push back to make sure we only have new motors that compete with them. Then we could actually go to the future and jump limited class up to some cheap 40mm motors.

Examples being the Leopard 4074 for $95 with a jacket from OSE or $86 without the jacket from Kintec. And the SSS 4074 is $80 with a jacket on OSE. So actually cheaper then an $75-$80 AQ that doesn't come with a jacket. Cheaper to an $11 increase from the AQ and the class moves forward to keep up with the modern RTR boats coming out.

As Terry said once before. What a snore... go buy a 50+mph RTR boat and then go throw in a lower power motor and loose 5 to 10 mph. What a snooze...
Just makes no sense (to me) to keep running these small 3660 motors and not moving forward with the rest of the hobby.

[longballlumber]

Dave indirectly brought up another point that has been on my mind…

Access to motors:

The current legal motors are available all over the web, hobby shops, and directly from the distributer (Hobbico and Horizon Hobby). I would also assume the motors get produced in larger quantities because of the RTR market and boats being sold to hobbyist.

Now; speaking directly on the addition of new motors; we need to ask ourselves what can we do as racers to make this successful and keep the manufacturers interested in making motors? My answer: BUY MOTORS. The more motors on the list, the higher the probability lower quantities of each motor will be sold. IMO, that doesn’t help our cause for sustainment with the manufacturers. I would assume they would be much happier if they sold lots of a couple of winds rather than a few of many different winds.

Secondly, where are we going to get these motors from? Our natural response is going to be Steven at OSE. Will there be others? Maybe? Probably? One thing is certain, it won’t be as easy as the AquaCraft and/or Proboat motors. I am sure that Steven would much rather stock 4 different motors rather than 9 different motors. Maybe I am way off base, I am not sure.

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, I hear ya. I had mixed emotions about just letting the first phase of "limited" die out but it would be a lot like losing power at your house. By the time you get the geny going the milk is spoiled.

Just turning away from the existing setups would equate to deleting the fleets of many existing racers. For some, so what right? We're addicts. We'll just do it. Ty and I have 8 to 12 limited boats going at any one time. So maybe 500 to 1000 to change them out depending on the choice. Not everyone can or is willing to make that leap. For some it wont even be a cost thing. It will be principle. We lost club members when we quit racing N2 Sport and went to limited.

Jumping up to 40mm motors is P power. No way around it. P can be fast. Really fast. Likely will take 8k+ mah. Bring on the amps. 170 maybe. Takes away the "for everyone" thing I still think this can be. I think if we tried to write this next phase to include the new generation of RTR's then we're moving to P. We have P. If a bunch of P mono or Q mono start showing up.....I'll run with them. Already got the boats. Or......at the club level...we ditch SV27 and add Impulse RTR or even Voracity RTR when they start showing up.


This next phase isn't going to be what we've run before. We're not going to enjoy the influx of guys from the RTR market. We're not going to enjoy the buying power of the RTR market. Think that's what Mike is talking about. These motor manufacturers may be in the position (at some point) to make a decision about our precious supply of motors. They look at the numbers and..................hosed again. More of a lower selection may be better. Maybe. Could be that we don't add up to any attention regardless.

I feel like we're quibbling over minute details at this point.

[T.S.Davis]

Hey, are the Typhoon motors easier to find?

[dethow]

Just turning away from the existing setups would equate to deleting the fleets of many existing racers. For some, so what right? We're addicts. We'll just do it. Ty and I have 8 to 12 limited boats going at any one time. So maybe 500 to 1000 to change them out depending on the choice. Not everyone can or is willing to make that leap. For some it wont even be a cost thing. It will be principle. We lost club members when we quit racing N2 Sport and went to limited.

I having a problem seeing how a change from a current P-limited 36mm motor to a 40mm motor would cost anyone $500 to $1000 to change. (or were you saying $500 to $1000 to change ALL 8 to 12 boats?)

The motor itself would cost $80 to $90 and if needing to upgrade from an AQ 60amp, a new SK180 costs $120. So we're at a $200 investment. For those that need to make a change from 0.150 to 0.187 shafts... another $100 tops for stinger or strut (if necessary), stuffing tube, flex and collet. So we at $90 to $200 to $300 investment per boat.
At MI Cup I took my Pursuit with a SK180 and swapped out my AQ2030 for a $75 Leopard 3674 2200kv with an X642 prop. Boat was running just under 55mph and I did okay in P-Offshore. At the back of the pack, but I was happy to be racing at an increased speed.

As far as why have 40mm motors in a limited class??? Because that is basically just open P???
I don't think someone running a $80 to $90 motor on a $120 esc is going to be able to compete with someone having a $250+ Neu motor and $250+ speedo that allows them to prop up much larger and thus go faster.

And the answer there may be to limit both the motor and esc if we go to 40mm motors so that things are affordable with even competition. Another benefit of limiting the esc for limited class is that those still running 0.150 shafts probably wouldn't need to upgrade since there wouldn't be that outrageous of a load increase.

Just limit the motor list to six to nine 40mm choices and cap the esc at 180amp. Any brand esc just not over 180amp. Maybe even a 120 amp limit (which would decrease upgrade expenses by another $35). That way people could bring a new IM31 and only need to change out an $80 motor assuming that ProBoat motor wouldn't be in the list.



Sorry if I'm off base and missing the point here. But it just seems that a continuation down this road of 36mm P-limited is just going to die a slow death and we'll be left with nothing but people that want to put the time and money in to open P.
Yes... there WILL be less of a speed gap between P-Limited and Open P. BUT... costs of motor/esc in P-Limited ($150-$200) will be drastically less then Open P ($500-$600) and we'll hold people's interest in the class because these P-Limited boats won't be running slower then off the shelve stuff coming out.

And if members have a problem with the change, why can't we just expect the local clubs to start running specific spec classes that are necessary in their area? You know much like the expectation that it should be up to local clubs to keep up with the RTR models coming out.
In other words... we are going to loose future new members because we refuse to have a cost effective class that runs as fast as their RTR boat? All over some people wanting to still run outdated slow boats/motors when they could still run those in their local club if they want to.

With a 40mm upgrade and limited esc, we're not stopping people from continuing to run their current boats at their local clubs. But if we don't upgrade we are leading P-Limited to a slow death. Once existing people start switching to Open P, no one will step back to a P-Limited class that was upgraded to late. Thus clubs will start running Open P only, leaving a cost effective class a mere memory.

So in the end, just propose what you're going to propose. Really doesn't matter because this class will be dead in 3 to 5 years with or without these additional 36mm motors. IMO...

[dethow]

Hey, are the Typhoon motors easier to find?

It's further up in this thread that someone said the Typhoons would have an obvious advantage over current motor selections.

[Darin Jordan]

Guys, can we PLEASE stop even considering 40mm plus motors? Those of us who REALLY DO know about how this stuff works KNOW that this would blow the current performance parameters of the class completely up. Can you PLEASE just take our word for it?

There are a lot of National Championships, SAW and 2-Lap records, and heat wins in this group that its likely to have enough experience to judge what a power system will do.

Including anything outside of the parameters suggested is a horrible idea. Just let the class die and run the existing P class if 40mm motors are the direction you want to go.

In the meantime, I looked at Hobbyking and they have an AquaStar series of motors with 1500, 1700, and 2050KV and are 36x60, 4-pole, 280g. They might be considered. However, I'm not sure on the supply as they are all shown on Backorder.
http://www.hobbyking.com/mobile/view...dparentcat=438

38657.jpg

[Darin Jordan]

The HET Typhoon motors are licensed from Neu. The have a 2500W rating. The others are 1800-ish. They are also $115.00. Probably out of scope.

[Darin Jordan]

On the SSS motors, if OSE carried them reliably, would that constitute a solid supply? It works for me.

If it weren't for OSE and this forum, the growth of our hobby would have stagnated a long time ago. If Steven can support us, I'm happy to support OSE.

[Darin Jordan]

As was mentioned previously, the Turnigy SK3 do seem to have the right basic specs, and the price is right. I'll have to look to see what KVs are offered. Hobbyking does seem to have them in stock. Here is the 1600KV:

http://www.hobbyking.com/mobile/view...dparentcat=355

25416.jpg

[Darin Jordan]

Oops.... sorry, double post