P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[photohoward1]

Specific Prop and Pitch. Octura X445 or M445.... (only balanced no pitching an tweeking)
Octura x445
Diameter: 1.77"
Total Pitch: 1.4x1.77=2.478" (For guys that don't know a prop is like a gear. Every rotation is going to move the boat 2.478" approx. There is slip in there and that is were tuning comes in.)

[Darin Jordan]

Specific Prop and Pitch. Octura X445 or M445.... (only balanced no pitching an tweeking)
Octura x445
Diameter: 1.77"
Total Pitch: 1.4x1.77=2.478" (For guys that don't know a prop is like a gear. Every rotation is going to move the boat 2.478" approx. There is slip in there and that is were tuning comes in.)

Only one prop allowed? Monos, Cats, Hydros, Sport Hydros, OPC Tunnels?? One prop?

[Doby]

Notice the topic was P-Limited motors...now we are on to props....didn't take long to go down a different tangent...

[T.S.Davis]

I have a question. Not an answer. Just food fer the nogg'n.

First a waltz down memory lane......haha

Anybody remember LSH or LSO?

Here's how it went..........we all already owned 700 motors. There were a variety available. We thought we had it figured out. We wanted to be inclusive and not committed to any one manufacturer. For fairness sake. We didn't want to exclude any suppliers or manufacturers. There were choices. All seemed good in the world. Group hug. Little kiss for the monkey. Then someone figured out how to have motors manufactured that were just a tick better. They looked just like 700 motors, smelled like em, sounded like em but not quite the same. Higher rpm with less heat. The SS1 wasn't the only choice but it was the only motor you could have if you wanted to win.

Then brushless RTR's came along. Guys started running them in their old LSH and LSO boats. And why not? They were faster, ran cooler, and were just more fun. But to get even close with a legal 700 motor you killed it. Those of us clinging to the 700's because they were in the book were ridiculed by the cool kids. About 2008 everyone was starting to do it. It was cool that an RTR guy could show and run. They absolutely did. No way around it. Our club is filled with them. By the end of summer 2008 the 700 was a mere memory. So the spec had to be burned into the book somehow. LSH and LSO were history. We had good intentions.

We thought we had it figured out. We wanted to be inclusive and not committed to any one manufacturer. For fairness sake. We didn't want to exclude any suppliers or manufacturers. There were choices. All seemed good in the world. Sensing a recurring theme? The spec attempted to include the two most popular sources for RTR motors. ProBoat and Aquacraft. For what ever reasons Proboat has moved on from their early offerings and Aquacraft has moved on from it's talent gene pool. The AQ line of motors is still available. Wild speculation for any of us to venture even a guess if that will always be the case.

My point is..........thought I'd never get there didn't ya.

All this effort we've put into not committing to a single motor has done jack for us. We ended up in the same damned spot. Motors in question again. Where are we going? Those motors suck why did we go with those? Everyone has a favorite they want included. Arguing about it for a year. Heck, friendships wrecked over it.

Sooooo.........What if?..... we just settled on a single motor and ran with it? A TP3630, or some Leopard, or even a Neu if the price was right? We ain't ROAR. We're not going to get a bunch of manufacturers attention and get them to produce what we want. We can't even get BOAT manufacturers to produce what they already make consistently. If we came up with a 10 motor list, who's to say the HK motor wont suddenly be made with bearing "x,y,z" because they got a hot deal on some ABEC 5's? They don't care about FE and care even less about our tiny racing niche.

Maybe if we went to a company like Neu and said......make us "this" and we'll buy a poop ton of them we could get a good motor that's comparable in performance to a 2030 that will last a decade. 36mmx60mm, 6 pole, 10 gauge wire, under $85 and tell him to expect to sell at least a 100 in the first batch. Keep allowing the current list but the as the old stuff disappears, what ever, we'll already for that next gen.

I just am tired of the bickering over them. A reliable source, quality motor, at a decent price.......done.

[photohoward1]

Yep. One prop. The ultimate limiting factor. Evens the playing field. Obviously different motor have different watt ratings so limiting the RPM and. the pitch is the magic key.


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[Darin Jordan]

Maybe if we went to a company like Neu and said......make us "this" and we'll buy a poop ton of them we could get a good motor that's comparable in performance to a 2030 that will last a decade. 36mmx60mm, 6 pole, 10 gauge wire, under $85 and tell him to expect to sell at least a 100 in the first batch. Keep allowing the current list but the as the old stuff disappears, what ever, we'll already for that next gen.

I just am tired of the bickering over them. A reliable source, quality motor, at a decent price.......done.

That's how Classic Thunder has done their 1/10th Scales for years. They do their homework, select a motor to use, and that's the motor everyone uses. They have changed them from year to year (every couple of years or ???), but generally use the same stuff for a couple of seasons.

If NAMBA spec'd a single, quality, appropriately sized motor, and leave everything else alone (any hull, prop, etc.), that would appeal to me as a racer. Would definitely be a "Limited Spec Class"... :) Let's face it, we kind of have that concept right now (AQ2030)...

The motor offering could be revisited at such a time that supply dries up and another motor selected.

Something worth discussing.

If that would sustain or continue to grow the class, and would also keep us from beating the crap out of each other, I'm for it. I don't want to post... I want to race. But I want the racing to be fair and fun.

[T.S.Davis]

If the motor had some sort of tamper resistant construction, teching them would become non existent.

[JimClark]

Couldn't each club do that at the beginning of the year? You bring a motor in sealed box and put some kind sticker that would have to be damaged to tear the motor apart. you check each race to make sure the seal is not tampered with?

If the motor had some sort of tamper resistant construction, teching them would become non existent.

[Darin Jordan]

Couldn't each club do that at the beginning of the year? You bring a motor in sealed box and put some kind sticker that would have to be damaged to tear the motor apart. you check each race to make sure the seal is not tampered with?

Jim,

How does Classic Thunder "tech" their motors, or do they even bother?

[ray schrauwen]

The one I posted, 1900kv EDF motor is not a type of motor that you can disassemble easily at all. No screws anywhere. I found a cooler for mine and I'm going to solder it up, put it in my PTSS and see how it does vs Doby's Popeye powered by TP. We'll duke it out in a month at the Wellesley butter festival.... Those kinky Mennonites!! lol...

If the motor had some sort of tamper resistant construction, teching them would become non existent.

[JimClark]

I don't think they do. They just spec out the exact motor to use

Jim,

How does Classic Thunder "tech" their motors, or do they even bother?

[Heath M]

Here's what our rule for restricted/limited is
EA RESTRICTED MONO-
Hull--Mono (No Steps) as per AMPBA SECTION 7.2.2
Motor--700 brushed, Proboat A3630-1500 Part Number-(PRB3310)/(DYNM3835), Aquacraft L36/56 Part Number-(AQUG7000).(There is no rpm per volt rating after the motor identification numbers on this aquacraft motor).
Battery--up to 12 x Sub-C NiMH cells or 4S lipo (up to 650 grams maximum)
Speed Controller--Any brushed controller, Proboat Brushless 45 amp Part Number-(PRB3309), Aquacraft Marine Brushless 45 amp, Part Number-(AQUM7005 or AQUM7010).
These Motors and Speed Controllers are the only ones to be used in this class, if in doubt please ask the Committee for confirmation before purchasing.
Motor and Speed Controller are available for purchase from club.

[raptor347]

Specs:
Can Measures: 36mm diameter x 60mm
Poles: 4 pole (perhaps allow 4 OR 6 Pole)
Weight: 252 Grams (That's without water jacket. Perhaps allow up to 260 Grams)
Max KV: 2050

I'd support this in a heartbeat. Run anything that fits those limits. One motor goes out of production or quality goes out the window and you're free to replace it with something else that fit the specs.

What's the heaviest water jacket that's commonly used?

[DPeterson]

Bad mistake tying rules to Manufacturers. Short sighted. Short lived. Try and learn from this. Tried to express this many times.

It would be another mistake to tie rules to manufacturer specs. All this is, is a set of numbers on paper. Some are legit, some are just marketing, and there is no standard method of testing across the manufacturers.

Listen for once - Establish a 3 or 5 person Tech committee. Get representation from the East, West, Midwest etc. The motors have to be tested on the water with data logging. This is the only way to try and match up the performance as close as you can get it. All persons in the Tech committee must be independent of any suppler. The Tech committee then reports their findings on each motor requested to be analyzed for consideration. If the 3 or 5 person Tech committee shows that a particular motor is matched up with the current performance parameters we are looking for in a Spec boat it then can go to a vote. It's not rocket science. Us dumb cheese heads already done it.

I still think there is merit in a prop spec. Albeit diameter only. 45mm or 46mm max limit. Turn a pipe with an ID measurement. Easy to check. Your P-Limited prop had better fit into the pipe. This still allows tweeking of props that we all enjoy doing.

Take more time and try not to make more mistakes this time around. Cleaning up these messes are difficult once they happen.

Doug

[Darin Jordan]

Returning to the threads topic, as I drove home today and thought of the options, I decided that the proper thing to do, in my opinion, is to define a dimensional limitation, and, if people feel it's necessary, an upper KV limit, and simplify the rules once and for all.

As I originally suggested above:

Proposed P-Limited Motor Specs:

MAX Motor Dimensions: 36mm Diameter x 60mm Length without water jacket
Maximum Weight: 260 Grams without water jacket (Include contacts??)
Poles: 4 or 6 poles allowed
Max KV: 2050
SENSORLESS, FIXED Timing motors only. No Sensored motors allowed.

Let me lay out my reasoning for this, and then I think I'll drop off this topic for awhile and let you all have your say.

1) The physical dimensions are EASILY verifiable with simple measuring equipment. Manufacturers specs would be for reference only.

2) These physical dimensions are WIDELY available from about every manufacturer, in all price ranges.

3) These physical dimensions are equivalent to the current P-LTD motors on the list.

4) Motors of this size would NOT make the current motors obsolete and would be equivalent in performance, protecting existing investments while allow an endless supply of available motors.

5) Maximum Weight is, again EASILY verified. by removing the water jacket and weighing. I would keep the water jacket out of the equation to prevent people from maximizing the motor weight by minimizing the water jacket in order to slip in a heavier motor.

6) This weight is, again, equivalent to the currently allowed motors.

7) The 4 or 6 Pole allowance makes available a wide range of motors.

8) The 4 or 6 Pole allowance keeps the performance of the motors similar, while allowing for options to help suit different setups.

9) The QUALITY of the motor and it's durability will no longer be a concern. It will become the responsibility of the competitor to decide how much quality they want. Cost won't be an issue, so if you want an inexpensive Chinese motor, that's your choice. If you want a better quality motor, that's an option as well. Performance of each will still be within an acceptable performance range, just like the current list of motors (PB1800 vs. AQ1800, for example).

10) Rules will NO LONGER be tied to MANUFACTUR'S or BRANDs. No part numbers need to be listed, quality won't be an issue, supply won't be an issue. Again, if will fall on the competitor to decide. If the motor fits the spec, it's allowed.

11) The Rules will NOT NEED TO BE REVISED AGAIN. Once you establish a spec, the discussion is OVER. Much like the Nitro engine rules, the dimensions are what they are. Go race! New motor comes out that fits the dimensions, there is no question as to it's legality if it fits the spec.

12) KV Upper Limit only will allow the racer to choose where the "sweet spot" is for their particular hull/motor combination. This also would be beneficial for Offshore setups, Hydros, etc., where one might work better on 1500KV, while the other works better at 2050KV.

13) Allowing any KV up to a limit protects people's current investments in hulls/hardware, etc., as, again, the competitor can choose the appropriate KV for their particular setup.

14) KV is easily verified with readily available KV checkers.

I'm sure there are other arguments for, and likely some against, defining the power system in this manner. It's all worth discussing.

At this point, unless someone can give me an argument against this type of motor specification, this is the direction I would support.

Thank you for considering my opinion. I'll look forward to hearing the thoughts of others.