NAMBA's P Limited Rules.

[T.S.Davis]

Oh also, on the "as manufactured" thing.

All of these manufacturers will build based on pennies this way or that way. They don't make decisions based on racing. Not a new concept either. Mabuchi spit out umpteen versions of the old 700 motors that LSH was based on. Right now there are two generations of the PB2000 right now. The newer of them have button head screws holding the end bell on. Smart but a pain in the a$$. Which one is right? With buttons? Without buttons? ......both are right. When you tech them as Terry described.....edge of dark, 40 degrees, in the wind you wont have the manufacturers drawings to verify it has the right wind, can, bearings, rotor, shrink wrap.

Then some of the aftermarket manufacturers today will do a custom wind and just charge accordingly. In same cases even custom cans. So you could have two "as manufactured" motors side by side from same hand building them be totally different.

Even if we were to rely on the protest process we still have to know how the original motor was built.......exactly. "Well.......it looks like a Proboat 2000........which generation?........did those have these bearings?......depends on which lot number." That's just for one manufacturer. Multiply that by every motor on Mikes list then add more as they become available. Ahhhhhhhh.

"As manufactured" would be a tech nightmare. It's part of what was wrong with the original rule set and a large part of why for years I've been saying that we blew it. It worked but only because we were all ignorant.

[Terry Keeley]

So then does it really matter what's in the can as long as it's 37 x 60?

I mean does it really matter?

NAMBA doesn't seem to think so and Mike told me 2-3 mph on an optimized Sport Hydro...

[don ferrette]

So then does it really matter what's in the can as long as it's 37 x 60?

I mean does it really matter?

NAMBA doesn't seem to think so and Mike told me 2-3 mph on an optimized Sport Hydro...

Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size. It's far past time to move past this analysis paralysis and just be done with it at 37mm x 60mm.

[T.S.Davis]

I don't know Terry. I've raced against some I consider very good racers? Some I consider the very best. I've lost to them. I've beat them. I've raced against hand wound motors, custom fabricated Neu motors, almost every RTR motor of the day. I've even modified some motors myself to see what was possible or to address what I thought were flaws. Won some. Lost some. I can't say that I was ever beat by a motor. I've lost to racers. Guys that turn laps, learn their boats, learn to respond to their boat at speed, tweak, tweak, tweak.

Heck, I know a few people. I have access to all those options too. I race motors that I bought off the shelf at the local hobby shop. If you buy a Proboat on line tonight it will come with a better motor than I race with. I simply don't take the best care of them.

So my opinion is that although one motor certainly could/can be better than the next it isn't enough to buy a win so to speak. It's like a .67 nitro motor. You can do what you want to it but it's still a .67 motor. It's only going to give you what it has if it's legal. The guy that knows how to get that little extra from his entire setup, can drive it, maybe got a better night sleep than the next nut...........that guy is going to win.

[ray schrauwen]

Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size. It's far past time to move past this analysis paralysis and just be done with it at 37mm x 60mm.

Please

[ray schrauwen]

I can't help but continue to be amazed at how badly grown men can behave over toy boats. Not you guys here, it's those who seem to like to run and control associations, ignoring the membership, constitutions and so on. Sort of spoils the fun doesn't it?
The class thing is the thing really. Like you guys, we now have 10 gazillion FE classes but can hardly put together anything more than P mono as a class at a regatta. Mostly this was done by one person just so they could set as many records as possible. Something because it exists I have been able to do as well, but whatever for that, I am over our national association and their bs!
Looking at how to grow FE in our club I am thinking through what will work best, be fair for racing, simple and generally affordable.
So far I am at;
P-Q Offshore and Hydro, max 6000 mah.
Open Electric, max 12s 10,000mah.
Pretty much just three classes, hard to be any more simple.

I like it. The rest of the world runs 1P in most electric classes because of the lower expense and many run 6S1P setups because of their efficiency regardless of hull size within reason.

This gazillion HP and crazy MAH classes are just $$ hogs.

I am sitting here looking at what I have and think, wth am I doing?

I'm selling a bunch of boats soon and probably going the above route or close to it.

Kepps... mmmm...

Just dreaming, sorry.

[dethow]

Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size. It's far past time to move past this analysis paralysis and just be done with it at 37mm x 60mm.

Couldn't agree more except I think the situation has left the realm of analysis paralysis and entered into obstruction of the desires of membership.

I can hear it now... "Well before we truly know if 37mm x 60mm will work, we need to figure out what the intent of the class is."

[Peter A]

I don't know Terry. I've raced against some I consider very good racers? Some I consider the very best. I've lost to them. I've beat them. I've raced against hand wound motors, custom fabricated Neu motors, almost every RTR motor of the day. I've even modified some motors myself to see what was possible or to address what I thought were flaws. Won some. Lost some. I can't say that I was ever beat by a motor. I've lost to racers. Guys that turn laps, learn their boats, learn to respond to their boat at speed, tweak, tweak, tweak.

Heck, I know a few people. I have access to all those options too. I race motors that I bought off the shelf at the local hobby shop. If you buy a Proboat on line tonight it will come with a better motor than I race with. I simply don't take the best care of them.

So my opinion is that although one motor certainly could/can be better than the next it isn't enough to buy a win so to speak. It's like a .67 nitro motor. You can do what you want to it but it's still a .67 motor. It's only going to give you what it has if it's legal. The guy that knows how to get that little extra from his entire setup, can drive it, maybe got a better night sleep than the next nut...........that guy is going to win.

The reality is, and I have both observed and been on each end of it, is that the fastest boat will not necessarily win. Often as not they will stuff in, roll over or break down. The old adage, "if first you want to win, then then first you have to finish".

While I get the basic reason for a 'ltd' or 'spec' class, there are few (and lessening) rtr offerings left for a beginner to get on the water with. So the question could really be , why even bother if there is no overall agreement in what it should be.
That being said, it just make sense to me that the 37x60 size would be the best compromise, as Don said, "Bottom line is your only going to be able to squeeze a certain amount of power no matter what due to physical limitations of the can size."
This is why we (NZ, I did that!) have a mah limit, Aussie and Naviga have weight limits. The best limitation is the size of the 'fuel tank'. You can only get so much out of it regardless of the motor!

[HTVboats]

Are we at the point that this "horse" has been beaten so badly that no one will move forward with this simple proposal? The consensus appears to have shifted. Do we need a straw poll here of IMPBA members for or against a 37X60 spec class. Notice 37 so we are not copying NAMBA if that helps. You can sort out the number of classes later as this should be a line item issue.
+1 for a spec class
Mic
Please sound off for or against

[dethow]

Notice 37 so we are not copying NAMBA if that helps.

NAMBA motor rule is 37mm Diameter x 60mm Length limits

[T.S.Davis]

Are we at the point that this "horse" has been beaten so badly that no one will move forward with this simple proposal? The consensus appears to have shifted. Do we need a straw poll here of IMPBA members for or against a 37X60 spec class. Notice 37 so we are not copying NAMBA if that helps. You can sort out the number of classes later as this should be a line item issue.
+1 for a spec class
Mic
Please sound off for or against

I already have and have the signatures on it as required. Just haven't sent it to anyone.

[T.S.Davis]

This is why we (NZ, I did that!) have a mah limit,

How do you guys verify that? I'm guessing you have the same problem that NAMBA does with their mah limit. Nobody checks it because nobody has the ability in the field on race day to do that. NAMBA relies on the sticker on the pack. If the sticker is right it's legal. They sometimes check pre-race voltage but the mah limits never get checked. Kind of a farce for them.

[dethow]

Are we at the point that this "horse" has been beaten so badly that no one will move forward with this simple proposal?

I already have and have the signatures on it as required. Just haven't sent it to anyone.

It is my belief that someone needs to just put in a proposal for 37mm x 60mm identical to NAMBA and see what happens. I think at this point it has all been debated so much... and that is the conciseness of what racers want. There is no silver bullet solution that is going to address every question/concern that Mr. Mike Ball may be able to bring up.

Mr. Ball and the rest of the BODs can either choose to approve the proposal and allow it to go forward for membership vote... Or they can resign to the fact that P-Limited/Spec classes can be run at a Nationals Event as a "Special Event" with winners being awarded First, Second, Third Place... No "National Champion". I also don't think that points from those "Special Events" would be able to be counted towards a President's Cup or any other combined points awards.

The sooner a proposal gets on their desk the sooner these discussions end.

And I'll promise you all now... I won't say a negative word if they deny and never let it go to membership vote.
As long as they acknowledge (in the meeting minutes) that will result in P-Limited/Spec classes only being run at "Nationals" events as "Special Events" with winners being awarded First, Second, Third Place... No "National Champion".
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[Doby]

Omfg......

[Terry Keeley]

I don't know Terry. I've raced against some I consider very good racers? Some I consider the very best. I've lost to them. I've beat them. I've raced against hand wound motors, custom fabricated Neu motors, almost every RTR motor of the day. I've even modified some motors myself to see what was possible or to address what I thought were flaws. Won some. Lost some. I can't say that I was ever beat by a motor. I've lost to racers. Guys that turn laps, learn their boats, learn to respond to their boat at speed, tweak, tweak, tweak.

Heck, I know a few people. I have access to all those options too. I race motors that I bought off the shelf at the local hobby shop. If you buy a Proboat on line tonight it will come with a better motor than I race with. I simply don't take the best care of them.

So my opinion is that although one motor certainly could/can be better than the next it isn't enough to buy a win so to speak. It's like a .67 nitro motor. You can do what you want to it but it's still a .67 motor. It's only going to give you what it has if it's legal. The guy that knows how to get that little extra from his entire setup, can drive it, maybe got a better night sleep than the next nut...........that guy is going to win.

Where's the "Like" button? For sure it's the whole package and the motor is only a small part of the equation.

And if the can size is the big limiting factor (kinda like displacement in fuel classes) then adding anything else is like picking fly chit outta pepper with boxing gloves on. Or "analysis paralysis" as Don puts it.

I know your National Fast Electric Director fairly well (Mr. Ball, lol) and I know that he is a meticulous type just as I am. Therefore he wants to get it right.

But a huge part of "getting it right" is also making it practical and simple enough so that the guys in the field can implement the Rule correctly.

On Sunday night, in the rain at 40*...