More limited motor discussion

[dethow]

I have a couple questions. Who knows. Maybe Brian or Dave are still seeing these. If we rolled back the hands of time and proposed this class way back when with L x W x Weight...........would there have been any discussion of these rules for last 8 years or so? I personally think there wouldn't have been nearly the hand wringing. We also wouldn't have had this thread. If that's fair (at all) it begs another question.....................what's the down side to having a national rule set for these? What's the deterrent so to speak?

Mike had asked what the benefit to IMPBA was. Participation is the short answer. Participation is the only reason for any rule set at the hobby level. We could ask that of all the classes. What's the benefit of having rules for say Thunderboat or gas hydro, or sport 20? Guys wanted to race them together. Needed a guideline. Made sense. So why not just let the clubs decide what Thunderboat is? Give them a suggestion but let them do what ever? Why not do that?

For that matter.....................why have any national rules? It's a leading question obviously. The idea is for people to know what they're getting no matter where they race.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!
This is the leadership at IMPBA not wanting anyone to be upset with them. Snowflakes… This is a lack of leadership. Have some balls and write a rule instead of passing the buck down to districts and clubs. All so they (BOD) can say “Don’t complain to us. Not our rules.”

Terry, you hit the nail on the head. If a national rule for a class needs to have benefit to IMPBA outside of participation… I’ll expect to see ALL national rules abolished.

I’ve had it said to me by several different people over the past couple days that the BODs “thinks” they’re doing the right thing for IMPBA. NO… they don’t. They are doing what they “think” will cause the least amount of bitching to them. It’s that plain and simple.

A national rule would bring more conformity and thus more participation to the classes. Participation is what’s best for IMPBA and they’re missing the mark here.

I will not race under IMPBA moving forward if this continues to be their path.

[dethow]

In regards to attracting Joe new guy, are any rtr boats coming with information about NAMBA or IMPBA? I just checked the UL19 manual and there is no mention of any racing, not sure if a separate page might be included. I know the only way I found out about organized racing was from either a flier or a page in the owners manual of my SV27. It read something like, when you get tired of boating on an open lake try making some buoys from milk jugs and racing around them. Still bored? Check out what organizations might be close to you, either NAMBA or IMPBA, boating with friends is always more fun.

I think the boat precedes the book.

Why would boat manufactures do anything to promote NAMBA or IMPBA? Those organizations do nothing to promote them…
The current format of NAMBA to promote RTR is go buy a RTR and either put in a slower motor to complete in P-ltd class or go buy a RTR and rip everything out for upgrades to complete in open P classes.
The current format of IMPBA to promote RTR is… nothing. Crickets singing to snowflakes falling from the sky.
Oh… wait I’m sorry, they may write a “Technical Bulletin” with recommendations for districts and clubs.

Both organizations have an opportunity to develop a new class which would bring participation from RTR boats. But both organizations aren’t showing much progress in the endeavor. So again… why would manufactures promote NAMBA or IMPBA?

Maybe that’s the answer, Terry… IMPBA would benefit from for a national rule because if they had something that was more inclusive to RTR manufactures they would have the ability to launch a campaign to get manufactures to promote their organization. Manufactures may be willing to put a flier in their boxes if that organization had a class which their boats could actually run out of the box.

But who am I kidding... I've been told by several people that NAMBA and IMPBA don't care about RTR and they're not going to write a rule to accommodate them. So again… why would manufactures promote NAMBA or IMPBA?

I think the bigger question here is... why are there many threads here on this forum regarding ways to bring participation up? But yet with the answer right in front of us, the 2 organizations are thumbing their nose up at the RTR manufactures. I believe the answer is because the 2 organizations don't really want more participation. They want a good-ole-boys club.

[T.S.Davis]

I think the bigger question here is... why are there many threads here on this forum regarding ways to bring participation up? But yet with the answer right in front of us, the 2 organizations are thumbing their nose up at the RTR manufactures. I believe the answer is because the 2 organizations don't really want more participation. They want a good-ole-boys club.

I don't think that's fair Dave. I know these guys. Some of them personally. I did think that for a long time though. The more involved I got the less I thought that. I also used think they were just resistant to change. Stubborn. Whatever. Having been the guy to sift through the yuck I now think of it more as being protective. Cautious even.

I would label it a curious thing though. There is resistance to a spec set of rules. Is it the history? 10000 page of BS doesn't inspire anyone to want to even talk about spec. However, if we had done something like what we've been talking about of late........... right from the beginning I don't know if we would have 10000 pages of BS. Really would like to understand it. In my huge empty head.

[Tom Kelly]

[QUOTE=dethow;710800]EXACTLY!!!!!!!
This is the leadership at IMPBA not wanting anyone to be upset with them. Snowflakes… This is a lack of leadership. Have some balls and write a rule instead of passing the buck down to districts and clubs. All so they (BOD) can say “Don’t complain to us. Not our rules.”

Have we met?


Don't you feel that we should take the time to make this as good as we possibly can? Let's give these guys some time to work out the problems that will give us the best not just for this season, but the future as well. I drove by the pond last night going to Bad Brad's......the water is still hard. It's still February.

Tom
D-2

[T.S.Davis]

[QUOTE=Tom Kelly;710816]

Don't you feel that we should take the time to make this as good as we possibly can? Let's give these guys some time to work out the problems that will give us the best not just for this season, but the future as well. I drove by the pond last night going to Bad Brad's......the water is still hard. It's still February.

Tom
D-2

hehehe Hey Tom, sent you an email too. We're having a club meeting tomorrow. Nothing really pressing just bench race'n mostly. Stop by and have a beverage.

[longballlumber]

I have a couple questions. Who knows. Maybe Brian or Dave are still seeing these. If we rolled back the hands of time and proposed this class way back when with L x W x Weight...........would there have been any discussion of these rules for last 8 years or so? I personally think there wouldn't have been nearly the hand wringing. We also wouldn't have had this thread. If that's fair (at all) it begs another question.....................what's the down side to having a national rule set for these? What's the deterrent so to speak?

It’s really hard to ignore the thousands of posts over multiple years regarding this topic: a large percentage of those posts being volatile and heated. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe one or several have publicly stated that NAMBA shouldn’t have allowed the class for records?! As the IMPBA continues to review a path forward we can’t turn a blind eye to these things.

Are we confident that in addition to the size limitation, a weight restriction is going to solve all of our P-Limited problems?! I don’t know. That’s what we are trying to examine and analyze. Base on history it makes for a fun successful class, but not without some serious baggage.

Mike had asked what the benefit to IMPBA was. Participation is the short answer. Participation is the only reason for any rule set at the hobby level.

I am asking this in as a serious question; do we not already have participation? Is there long list of racers waiting to enter the IMPBA and start racing as soon as we release a national rule set for P-Limited? If someone is going to tell me YES, then please help me to understand where those racers are.

We could ask that of all the classes. What's the benefit of having rules for say Thunderboat or gas hydro, or sport 20? Guys wanted to race them together. Needed a guideline. Made sense. So why not just let the clubs decide what Thunderboat is? Give them a suggestion but let them do what ever? Why not do that?

For that matter.....................why have any national rules? It's a leading question obviously. The idea is for people to know what they're getting no matter where they race.

IMO the answer is less about participation and more about controlling equality primarily focused on Time Trials and National events. All of those classes listed are available for TT’s. As soon as something goes into the book it’s one step short of being chiseled in stone. With that being said you’d better be darn sure you got it right, because it’s not coming out!

Just a note on Thunder Boat class; the rules for that class call out ONE motor from ONE manufacturer, not to mention there is a pretty substantial set of tech rules that go along with it. It seems to me we are trying to avoid something of that nature for P-Limited.

[longballlumber]

I don't think that's fair Dave. I know these guys. Some of them personally. I did think that for a long time though. The more involved I got the less I thought that. I also used think they were just resistant to change. Stubborn. Whatever. Having been the guy to sift through the yuck I now think of it more as being protective. Cautious even.

I would label it a curious thing though. There is resistance to a spec set of rules. Is it the history? 10000 page of BS doesn't inspire anyone to want to even talk about spec. However, if we had done something like what we've been talking about of late........... right from the beginning I don't know if we would have 10000 pages of BS. Really would like to understand it. In my huge empty head.

HA HA HA Some sort of universe alignment just happed for a spit second. Be carful there might be another meteorite heading towards MI in both our directions!

[longballlumber]

I drove by the pond last night going to Bad Brad's......the water is still hard. It's still February.

Tom
D-2

Good to hear from you Tom. How was the BBQ?

[dethow]

Don't you feel that we should take the time to make this as good as we possibly can? Let's give these guys some time to work out the problems that will give us the best not just for this season, but the future as well. I drove by the pond last night going to Bad Brad's......the water is still hard. It's still February.

Tom
D-2

What you say makes sense, Tom.
That is, if it was the intention to work problems out and actually come up with a national rule. Problem is that I've been informed that its not the intention of IMPBA to have a national rule. Its their intent to write a “Technical Bulletin” with recommendations for districts and clubs to self govern and limited/spec motor classes.

And no, Tom. I don't believe we have met. Have you been to any MMEU meeting or races?

[dethow]

I am asking this in as a serious question; do we not already have participation? Is there long list of racers waiting to enter the IMPBA and start racing as soon as we release a national rule set for P-Limited? If someone is going to tell me YES, then please help me to understand where those racers are.

Mike, You want a list of guys waiting to race as soon as we release a national rule set for P-Limited? Go to any hobby shop or spend a little more time at our pond. Guys and kids come around all the time asking what it takes to get involved. We race in a city park with youth baseball fields, for god sakes.

They glaze over when you start telling them they have to go buy a boat and then change the motor. Oh, and you’ll have to learn how to solder new connectors on because the allowable motors have junk stock connectors that will burn up and/or don’t match the esc of several RTR boats available.

We have several current RTR boats that are better than past years and that have better connectors already on them. But wait… those boats/motors aren’t allowed.

And why do you expect the veteran guys at local clubs to just make these classes and run them with no expectation of ever being able to runs these boats at national events or hold records? Is there a list of veterans waiting to spend their time and money on boats with the soul purpose of bringing in and cultivating new guys? Nope... the veterans want to build and race the boats they have at large events and that they can get their name in records books for racing well.

[dethow]

Is it the history? 10000 page of BS doesn't inspire anyone to want to even talk about spec. However, if we had done something like what we've been talking about of late........... right from the beginning I don't know if we would have 10000 pages of BS. Really would like to understand it. In my huge empty head.

Again... EXACTLY!!!!!!!
There wouldn't be a 10000 pages of BS if the organizations had actually done something 2 years ago. Lack of leadership.... if they don't want controversy maybe they should act and show some leadership before a group of guys on a forum are forced to try and be the leaders.

My “good-ole-boys” club statement may not be fair... But it’s what their actions are representing. And that's besides their words that many have made it clear that the organizations will never write a rule with the thought process of being inclusive to RTR.

Where are majority of boats purchased? Answer: Hobby Shops and On-Line from RTR manufactures.
What should be the organizations top priority? Answer: Getting participation in the hobby

So why are the organizations turning their nose up at RTR? and Why are there threads and generally people asking what do we have to do to get participation up? Answer: Because we have a lack of leadership at these organizations that have a top priority of not being involved in controversy. ie… leave us alone and let us “good-ole-boys” race our custom built boats. If you clubs want to include newbies… go right ahead, but don’t expect us to.

Maybe that’s it… the unspoken structure. Local clubs are responsible to bring in and cultivate new guys so that eventually they can be allowed in the “good-ole-boys” racing events once they learn to drive and build custom boats.
Sorry for the blunt truth… but that’s about it right there. Maybe we wouldn’t have a membership thirsty for participation if our national organizations weren’t running on that structure.

[T.S.Davis]

HA HA HA Some sort of universe alignment just happed for a spit second. Be carful there might be another meteorite heading towards MI in both our directions!

I know did you feel the ground shake?!?! All the roads around here just crumbled to bits.

I don't think there is a line of people looking to jump in but I feel like these are the most likely source of potential additional racer. Screw the rules for a second. Let's just talk boats and a route to racing.

We keep talking about this average Joe guy. He's gonna be busy. Average Joe thinks....hmmm, what's the deal with rc boats? He goes into a hobby shop learn about boats. He wants easy to operate, semi fast, inexpensive. Debatable that last one. He's not buying a nitro. Nothing on the shelf. No thunderboats on the shelf. He can buy a Zelos for $999. Or he picks from the electrics. For less he can he can get a Skater or Veles with batteries and a charger. Granted the Zeles might be easier to run.

Now he asks store guy "does anybody race these?" Store guy will likely look at him like a deer in his final moments. Joe will have to do his own research.

If he finds a gas club to run the Zeles he's going to get killed trying to race it. Nice boat but not super fast factory. If he finds an electric club........he's in with a respectable boat right out of the box.

That is NOT a line of peeps trying to get in by any stretch of the imagination. It is however (in my opinion of course)the shortest route between a guy that doesn't own a boat to a guy racing. This has been my beef all along and why I kept encouraging people to run limited with NAMBA. Despite the flaws it sorta works. Still tiny numbers.

Getting guys that own boats to try something new doesn't add to our ranks. If I bought a gas boat.......so what? It's one of umpteen. If Topher from Larry's picks up a Veles we're getting somewhere.

Yer right about rules never leaving Mike. NAMBA too. When was the last time ECO was even seen here? I saw one in 2005. Still in there.

[CraigP]

Got a question, can a guy show up with a completely stock (electrical) UL-1 and race in P Limited with 4s batteries?

[dethow]

Got a question, can a guy show up with a completely stock (electrical) UL-1 and race in P Limited with 4s batteries?

He can yes... but he won't be competitive.
He'd need to prop the hell out of it which will pull more amps and burn up the stock connectors between motor and esc along with the 60amp esc most likely.
But the UL-1 is just an out or date boat that would need a lot of things to be competitive along with a really good driver to handle it.

But if you want to bring a more modern ProBoat UL-19 you could run P limited completely stock and be more competitive. That is if the motor which comes in a UL-19 was legal in NAMBA or if IMPBA had any rules to be inclusive for any RTR boats.

So as of right now... a guy can't show up with any RTR boat and be allowed and/or competitive IF the club is following current NAMBA or IMPBA rules.

[TheShaughnessy]

Why would boat manufactures do anything to promote NAMBA or IMPBA? Those organizations do nothing to promote them…
The current format of NAMBA to promote RTR is go buy a RTR and either put in a slower motor to complete in P-ltd class.....

I was simply sharing my personal experience with how I began down the path of racing.

Boat manufactures should promote NAMBA and IMPBA because it sets the hook deeper. I don't think you can say the organizations don't do anything to promote RTR's, perhaps the president etc. aren't promoting rtr's but we are all part of the organization(s) and rtr's have been suggested numerous times by the membership body. To me it comes down to exposure, it ties into the law of large numbers, probability, etc. The more the consumer is around the hobby the more likely they are to purchase more goods related to the hobby. This is a disease, look at guys who are infected and you will find a garage full of boats, parts, batteries, you name it.

I can't subscribe to the idea that a 80 dollar motor is the limiting factor in participation, plenty of people spend that hand over fist. Perhaps it is a deterrent but no way is it stopping a man (or woman) on a mission from pursing racing. Having to solder connectors? If you have a problem with that you probably shouldn't be looking at remote control vehicles as a hobby, consider it a screening process. If someone is whining about that I don't even want to think of the other BS they could come up with to be dissatisfied. A quick visit to car land, not many RTR cars come with 17 turn motors (stock classs) but that doesn't seem to hurt the numbers of the stock class.

When I first started pursuing racing there wasn't a class at my local racing pond for the boat I owned, one of the finest RC boat racing sites in the country mind you. I was told I could run my SV27 (blue can) in open oval, which would have been a disaster. I ended up going to Legg lake on a weekend that races were being held just to get a lay of the land. It was at that time I met Properchopper and he more or less broke me off on electric classes being offered, or a lack there of. Within a couple weeks I picked up a LSH hull and not too long after that I picked up a V1 Geico (RTR).

I'm not saying a boat manufacture would directly or immediately benefit from including information on racing, but I certainly don't see how it could hurt. Without that initial exposure to racing , the sv27 may have been my first and last rc boat.
Anyhow this all seems a bit off topic so I think I'm going to slowly back away from the keyboard.