More limited motor discussion

[dethow]

I was simply sharing my personal experience with how I began down the path of racing.

It's all good. You brought a good point and what I said wasn't an argument directed at you. It was directed at the powers to be within the organizations. When I say the organizations don't do anything to promote RTR, I'm talking about the rules and inclusiveness of the rules. Of course we all do our part to buy and recommend RTR boats, but it always comes with modification necessary to be competitive.

Right now we finally have some RTR boats that could truly come out of the box and be somewhat competitive in a P-ltd or spec class without a lot of modifications outside of good batteries, good prop and good driving. But the organizations are pushing back on rule set which would allow that. That's what I mean that the organizations don't do anything to promote RTR boats.

I don't race cars so I don't know much on the subject of what can be run out of the box. I'll trust in that there are probably a lot of mods necessary for that. I don't know. But the bottom line is that cars are more popular and don't have issues with participation. The boat organizations should not be using them as an example of what we should do. Maybe we need to be more inclusive to RTR (than cars need to be) in order to get more participation.

And I do somewhat see your point on the soldering thing. Hell maybe it's our mistake for even saying anything. Maybe we should just let guys go spend the money and then start telling them the things they'll need to do in order to be competitive and/or not burn up their new equipment. I guess I view it as being upfront with people. Wouldn't really want someone feeling like there are things I should have told them before they went and spent the money.
I just feel like soldering or any modifications would be an easier thing to talk about and get someone to start learning if they could get on the water and have some fun first. I don't really think it'd be fun to bring out a new boat and get lapped by everyone because you can only run a 42mm prop on that 60amp esc with stock connectors. And not fun to burn up your brand new boat attempting to use a 45mm prop without modifying a few things.

[T.S.Davis]

I don't know man. I think yer over think'n this Dave. I've been through every rule change since Nicd batteries. We messed up the first round of this back in 2008 IMO. I'm the one that proposed it so I think I get to say that.

If this takes longer I'm okay with it. I was only asking those questions earlier to get my brain around the apprehension. My understanding thus far from multiple sources is that the controversy has been so vast and of such duration that some are hesitant to even get in the water. It's like stabbing yourself in the leg on purpose. "Those guys are all nuts. Screw that!" Us throwing a poop fit cuz it can't happen soon enough wont help. It only makes people less receptive if anything. What we need to do is prove that this time........it works. Prove that the debate has ended.

I really believe we're headed in the right direction now. If we are ..........that proof will be in that participation and rule silence. We have to convince people it's the correct direction. Not demand that it is. We may end up with a band-aide for now. So what really. We were already taking a chance with our club rules. Others agreed to come play with us even with them being incomplete so it can't be all bad.

[dethow]

Right now we finally have some RTR boats that could truly come out of the box and be somewhat competitive in a P-ltd or spec class without a lot of modifications outside of good batteries, good prop and good driving.

And for those that don't think that's true. MMEU had a new guy come out with his ProMarine Phantom SV33 with stock SSS motor. He killed the competition in offshore with a season point total spread of 1,000+/- over second place. He took second in sprint and only lost by 25 points in a season point total. So he basically tied a veteran whose been racing for years and travels the country racing large events. That's besides the numerous other veterans he flat out beat.

[Charlietuna1]

He can yes... but he won't be competitive.
He'd need to prop the hell out of it which will pull more amps and burn up the stock connectors between motor and esc along with the 60amp esc most likely.
But the UL-1 is just an out or date boat that would need a lot of things to be competitive along with a really good driver to handle it.

Everything you have said is true.
However, let’s say someone completely unfamiliar with organized fe shows up at Ford Field. And let’s say you guys had some kind of provision in your liability insurance to cover said guy for the evening. (maybe something to consider)

What would happen? He would get his ass handed to him in a race. That’s a given, but he would also be welcomed openly and enjoy getting his ass handed to him. Terry would take the time to offer little tidbits of info, advice and encouragement. All the while setting the hook a little deeper if you will.
If FE is truelly his thing he’ll be back and looking to become more competitive.
You just have to figure out a way to let them play enough to get addicted.

[dethow]

You just have to figure out a way to let them play enough to get addicted.

Agreed

However, let’s say someone completely unfamiliar with organized fe shows up at Ford Field. And let’s say you guys had some kind of provision in your liability insurance to cover said guy for the evening. (maybe something to consider)

We actually have that. It's single event coverage and I think cost is $10.
First step thou is the person having a boat that is allowed in classes. When MMEU was with NAMBA that was difficult. Now that we're with IMPBA and basically write our own club rules that's why it's easier and someone like Chris F. came in a killed it last season.

[CraigP]

He can yes... but he won't be competitive.
He'd need to prop the hell out of it which will pull more amps and burn up the stock connectors between motor and esc along with the 60amp esc most likely.
But the UL-1 is just an out or date boat that would need a lot of things to be competitive along with a really good driver to handle it.

But if you want to bring a more modern ProBoat UL-19 you could run P limited completely stock and be more competitive. That is if the motor which comes in a UL-19 was legal in NAMBA or if IMPBA had any rules to be inclusive for any RTR boats.

So as of right now... a guy can't show up with any RTR boat and be allowed and/or competitive IF the club is following current NAMBA or IMPBA rules.

I think most of the motors on the list are low amp motors. I can see maybe pushing 90-100A, but after that it’s getting extreme on heat... So in this Limited class, folks are just putting in big ESC’s, run until they fry and replace the motor? I’m just trying to figure out how much over-amp I got to contend with to compete... Any numbers (as long as they’re good numbers, lol!) would help!

[Charlietuna1]

“First step thou is the person having a boat that is allowed in classes.”
At the club level? Obviously not for your points racing. Or maybe be a little loosey goosey with rules, under the right circumstances.

Wish I knew about your temporary liability coverage. On a few occasions I’ve seen different adults running electrics in the little pond at Dakota Highschool just didn’t know how all that would work out.

[T.S.Davis]

We actually have that. It's single event coverage and I think cost is $10.

That's actually a riddle I haven't cracked.

With IMPBA you can get a temporary membership. It's not temp event insurance. Basically you become a member for the duration of an event. It's only available to you if you are already a member of another organization. NAMBA or AMA or something like that. To try out a boat vs actually racing isn't quite the same thing.

To use the pond, the city wants each person to be insured. We make sure that is the case as we want to use their grounds/pond.

To participate in an event, IMPBA needs everyone to be a member. Allowing an individual to participate without membership will result in stiff penalties to the host club. So we can't let that happen.

NAMBA was similar but different They have single event insurance (SEI). Today, a DD can't accept the SEI fee on site like before. An interested individual has to get their SEI through the NAMBA website. Same thing, supposed to be for an actual event.

Neither of these have anything to do with the organizations BTW. It's been dictated to them by the insurance. It does make it tougher in that on certain bodies of water you can't just hand a guy a controller and say "try it, you'll like it!". For us it's particularly counter intuitive. We have a closed course with very limited access. A single point of entry. Exposure of the public to our boats is non-existant. Liability exposure is nil but we still have to be very aware of the regulations set forth by both the City and IMPBA to stay out of trouble.

[Charlietuna1]

If I see this guy running a boat in a glorified drainage ditch can I say “Hey, there’s a bunch o’lunatics racing these things over there. You should go check them out” ?
I was leary of doing so thinking, if this guy shows up with his boat and you have to turn him away because of the insurance thing. He mightbbe put off.

[Doug Smock]

Guys,

A IMPBA host club can put a driver on the stand for $1. Must have a spotter, not allowed in the hot pits etc. Not valid for racing.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/354e649c66ce9dfbf55072b456cb601f?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

C. Non-Member Coverage
The insurance does not cover any person who is not a paid member of IMPBA regardless of what
other club or organization he may belong. Paid members of other boating organizations may pay the Single-Event fee for membership dues during that event only.

[T.S.Davis]

If I see this guy running a boat in a glorified drainage ditch can I say “Hey, there’s a bunch o’lunatics racing these things over there. You should go check them out” ?
I was leary of doing so thinking, if this guy shows up with his boat and you have to turn him away because of the insurance thing. He mightbbe put off.

Yep, it's happened. However, think back to the retention pond you fell in over on 26 mile. That's the drainage ditch where I used to run. Heck, we ran a club race there. I've raced all over the country since then. Gotta float before we can race.

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, you are the man!

[T.S.Davis]

Got a question, can a guy show up with a completely stock (electrical) UL-1 and race in P Limited with 4s batteries?

Almost missed this one. We have a guy that's raced with us for eons that runs a UL1. He's raced it in both limited sport and full P sport. He's not the fastest but sometimes finishing is enough. Frequently the super fast guys are upside down. Here comes Marc!!!

I just checked and he's signed up for P sport for the nationals. I'm quite certain he'll run the UL1.

[Doug Smock]

Doug, you are the man!

Thanks for noticing.
The "Guest fee" idea came up at a BOD meeting. It was a great idea and the office found a way to make it happen.

[CraigP]

Almost missed this one. We have a guy that's raced with us for eons that runs a UL1. He's raced it in both limited sport and full P sport. He's not the fastest but sometimes finishing is enough. Frequently the super fat guys are upside down. Here comes Marc!!!

I just checked and he's signed up for P sport for the nationals. I'm quite certain he'll run the UL1.

The boat is pretty quick with a S220 and about 180g of weight in the nose. But the thing I’m trying to get my head wrapped around is how much a typical Limited guy is over amping the motor. From the OSE site, the AQUG7001 is spec’d at 50a cont and 80a@5sec surge. So let’s say we super cool it the best you can, and run it at 60A cont. From what I’ve read here, there are guys with 200A ESC’s in the boat. So what is a 200A ESC doing paired to a 60A motor? Some of you guys are pushing that motor up to 300% over max current! Now at some point, that stator is going to saturate and just like that, the ESC is looking at nearly a dead nuts short. So some guys figure out IF I COULD JUST GET 2, maybe 3 more turns of wire on each stator coil, I just might make it live. so this class, from an outsider looking in, is about playing chicken with who can go closer to the saturation point and get away with it.

It’s probably cheaper to run in Open because your less likely to be pushing lines like that, just get a bigger motor. So your Limited class is actually your high tech class and Open lower because you can always just put a bigger motor and not have to worry about contending with a 300% over rate... I think that somehow, things went wrong when the over rates got crazy.