LIPO fire at the FE Nationals

[puttekula]

As Darin said, is it that hard to measure every "boats" voltage before dropping it into the water? One of the more easy looked after rules I think...
Lipo fires do happens. The reasons for that? I think some form of "abuse" lies behind the most of them. Overcharging due to faulty chargers/with purpose etc
and mechanical "abuse" in any form is the major reason for this. Correct me if Im wrong. How many Lipo fires is there in stores around the world that stores
hundreds of Lipos around?
The cause of this fire can only be speculated of. And from my point of view, the only way to "handle" a Lipo fire is to bury it into sand or put it into a bucket of water.
Just to let the energy out without doing any harm and let it burn out by itself. But if the Lipo has put the environment into fire, any hand extinguisher will do the trick for that purpose.

[Darin Jordan]

we just need to enforce those we already have.

I agree... Just trying to cover all the bases to keep those IMPBA NAMBA Haters from making their not-so-disguised bashes at our teching procedures...

[Fluid]

I understand Darin, but those who do not race SAWS evindently do not. With the time it takes to tape up and then either go straight to the pits or to wait around for 10 minutes while two nitro boats are run and retrieved, the hectic pace strains both the racers and the event director. Can measuring the voltage be done prior to each run? Sure, but it would slow the whole process - and we often get precious little time on the water as it is. Will simply requiring launcing all boats from the pits prevent over-volting (which is not at all widespread)? Sure - and it requires no delays in the racing process. KISS.

This should be discussed in another thread as it does not appear to be an issue with the fire. Please go here for more discussion, thanks.
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...232#post431232

.

[jasoncyclone]

When charging lipos, do they always get warm or hot before they expand or catch fire??? I am only asking because when I charge lipos I am very close by and check the temps by hand alot!!! Is this a bad thing to do when charging lipos??? I dont like to charge them in the lipo bags because I cant see or feel them..... Sorry for the ??? Just want some good advise while all the topdogs are here!!!! Thanks

[JIM MARCUM]

Jim... I'm sorry, but you are completely off base here... The ABC fire extinguishers did exactly what they were suppose to. Throwing WATER on an Electrical/Chemical fire is insane. Once power was removed from the situation, it took a few extinguishers to get the job done, but they did the job. Water would have been a disaster! As it was, you can't even tell anything ever happenend, once it as all cleaned up.

Those of you who weren't standing right there (I was pitted right next to the trailer and saw the actions that put the fire out... ), You really have not room to speculate or criticise here. You simply don't have the information to make a qualified judgement.

As for over-volting your cells. Give me a break. It's a stupid practice, that results in ruining your Lipos. Just use them as they were meant to be used, and learn how to work props and tune your boat.

Darin I respect you as a great FE boat racer & as a person, but from what I witnessed during, and after the LIPO fire, the dry chemical fire extinguishers were useless at putting the LIPO - CHEMICAL fire out. However, because the flames had already ignited the plastic florescent light housings above the trailer's work bench and was threatening the rest of the trailer and thousands of dollars in contents (at least $50K my best guess), I agree that the Fire extinguishers were indeed effective at putting that secondary fire out.

But Darin, you are dead wrong regarding putting out a LIPO CHEMICAL fire out with water. Imersion in water works, will indeed stop the chemical reaction causing the fire, and is the safest and fastest way I am aware of to control the hazardous LIPO smoke emissions. After the cooler full LIPOs were removed from the trailer, they continues to burn & put out a large cloud of smoke, despite being covered with white powder residue from the 4-5 dry chemical fire extinguishers. Being less than 10" away from my tables - and upwind - of the still igniting LIPOs, I felt I had no choice - so I grabed the cooler, ran & dunked it into Legg Lake. Once covered in water the fire was quenched immediately. Still burping bubbles of toxic white smoke for another half hour - but at least it was then downwind for me, the rest of the FE guys, and the adults, children, and pets walking & jogging around the lake.

This the first time I've heard the term "electrical" fire mentioned. I agree it would be insane to put water on an ELECTRICAL fire. Electrocution is a very bad thing. But, dunking a burning LIPO in water will not harm you. Whereas, inhailing that toxic smoke will. I truly hope those brave folks who rushed into that smoke filled trailer don't suffer any latent damage to thier health downstream.

However, due to the secrecy & lack of factual information released form those who know the exact cause - no one will have the benefit lessons learned, and the opportunity to avoid a possible repeat of this incident. Or worse. It's time to get this information out in the open. What was the exact cause of this fire, and how can we FE boaters avoid having this happen to them? If we fail to get to the root cause of this fire and make other RC users aware of both the cause & cure, it will be a grave diservice to our FE boating community and the general public.

If someone out there is a Fire Protection Specialist or chemical engineer, and knows of a better way to extinguish a LIPO fire - other than imersion in water - please enlighten us. We all were lucky this time. Only money - not life - was lost. But if we don't pull our heads out of the sand on this issue, our luck will run out. Sooner or later.

And Michael, this is not about you, me, the FE Nationals organizers or anyone else. It is about SAFETY. If we don't wake up soon, either eco-environmentalists, or the courts will destroy this great sport for all of us. That would be a shame. JIM

[Doby]

If they were being overcharged or whatever...its probably better that some people don't know...it would only lead others to try it if they knew.

Darwin's theory would prevail.

Lipos (and any battery chemistry) can be dangerous...be prepared...be careful...period.

[Darin Jordan]

If they were being overcharged or whatever...its probably better that some people don't know...it would only lead others to try it if they knew.

Darwin's theory would prevail.

Lipos (and any battery chemistry) can be dangerous...be prepared...be careful...period.

You guys really should get off the "over-charging" path... there is NO WAY that people racing 3-5 classes a day at the Nats have time to worry about over-charging anything. Hell... we're luck if we have time to GET everything charged round-to-round.

[Darin Jordan]

But Darin, you are dead wrong regarding putting out a LIPO CHEMICAL fire out with water. Imersion in water works, will indeed stop the chemical reaction causing the fire, and is the safest and fastest way I am aware of to control the hazardous LIPO smoke emissions.

I'll gather some data to try to back up my position, but I can tell you this for certain... 1) Lipos burn UNDER WATER... it's a CHEMICAL REACTION... It generates it's own accelerates, etc... 2) There is NO WAY I'm throwing water on a lipo that is sitting on a charger being charged... that's a shock hazzard waiting to happen.

The fire extinguishers DID do their job. You are NOT going to put out a chemical fire of this nature with just one 5lbs extinguisher because the chemicals will continue to react. They are reacting internally, where water, chemicals, sand, etc., can't get to them. All you can hope to do is suppress the flames and keep them from spreading until the chemicals exhaust themselves. I've NEVER seen a Lipo burn just part way. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. You are usually left with a pile of melted plastic and copper plates.

I'll contend one thing further... throwing water in there might have resulted in SPREADING the chemicals further around the trailer.

I will make it a point to consult with Thunder Power and get their opinion of the proper methods to put something like this out. If I'm wrong, I'll let you know. Either way, I'll let people know what they say about how to properly and safely put a fire like this out.

As it stands now, I'll have my own extinguishers at events from now on, and they'll be 20lb, not the smaller personal 5lbs size, though those would be good to have around too.

[ron1950]

not trying to get into this but the local indoor track always has a bucket of salt water for lipo fires...not to throw on it but to put the smoking battieries into the bucket......seemed to work well...like i said i dont know for sure what good the salt did but they never had a shooting fire at all if they got a smoker to the salt water bucket in time....

[ray schrauwen]

I am thankful for this thread. It is a good wake up call for me as I have lipos stored kinda everywhere right now and some not in a sack.

I thought it was SALT WATER that would help to neutralize the fire or the lipo chemicals?

Anyway, I'm grabbing a bag of sand from the garden shop this weekend for running in 2 weeks.... plus a bucket.

Thank you for the wake up call!

Maybe wee should all cary a bucket and a bag of salt to events like these and pull water from the lake to make yer slurry???

I remember when Howards rigger just went right up in flames one time waiting for a heat, not sure if it was plugged into the speedo though???

That was nasty!

[Rumdog]

lol.
So... what happened?

[T.S.Davis]

I thought I had this extinguisher thing figured out. I do know this. A single fire incident can't be used to determine that extinguishers are wrong and water is right. We have to go with what the chemistry tells us not what we saw during a single mishap. Not all accidents are exactly the same.......because they're accidents. All the fire codes are written based on the science and not on single events with no real scientific test data. I doubt seriously that the guy who had the fire is sure what exactly the cause was.

I'll see what I can dig up too. I have access to an extensive fire protection library. Might take some time though. Hard to pick the right volumes to peruse. Probably start with the fire protection handbook.

[JIM MARCUM]

I'll gather some data to try to back up my position, but I can tell you this for certain... 1) Lipos burn UNDER WATER... it's a CHEMICAL REACTION... It generates it's own accelerates, etc... 2) There is NO WAY I'm throwing water on a lipo that is sitting on a charger being charged... that's a shock hazzard waiting to happen.

The fire extinguishers DID do their job. You are NOT going to put out a chemical fire of this nature with just one 5lbs extinguisher because the chemicals will continue to react. They are reacting internally, where water, chemicals, sand, etc., can't get to them. All you can hope to do is suppress the flames and keep them from spreading until the chemicals exhaust themselves. I've NEVER seen a Lipo burn just part way. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. You are usually left with a pile of melted plastic and copper plates.

I'll contend one thing further... throwing water in there might have resulted in SPREADING the chemicals further around the trailer.

I will make it a point to consult with Thunder Power and get their opinion of the proper methods to put something like this out. If I'm wrong, I'll let you know. Either way, I'll let people know what they say about how to properly and safely put a fire like this out.

As it stands now, I'll have my own extinguishers at events from now on, and they'll be 20lb, not the smaller personal 5lbs size, though those would be good to have around too.

Darin I agree with everything you have said - to a point. Again - the fire extinguishers did a great job on the secondary fire - but not on the burning LIPOs. You are absolutely correct that once a LIPO starts to burn - imersion in water will not put the chemical fire out. It will however, control the flames, eliminate additional fire damage caused by flames to nearby combustables, and will slow the chemical reaction down somewhat. It's a matter of controlling & limiting further damage. Imersion in water will not stop the toxic smoke or chemical reaction causing it. As I said before, the batts will continue to produce smoke bubbles for some time under water.

IMO, tossing a burning LIPO into a bucket of water (or lake) is the best option we currently have to CONTROL a LIPO fire.

I salute you for consulting Thunder Power. Please advise us on thier opinions and recommendations on how to better fight a LIPO fire. I look forward to your findings.

Meanwhile, I'll keep a bucket of water handy.

And by the way Darin, what the Hell REALLY caused the fire in the first place? Ignorance through silence is not an option. Too much at stake here. JIM

[graill]

Here is some first hand observation from other events. Lipos stacked on top of one another in piles, lipos stacked several deep in various types of containers, coolers included, all contacting each other, lipo connectors not capped after use, lipos laying around with water on them.

Just a few of the things i note when i walk around a pit. Lots of room for enforcement and improvement. The thing is, the people in charge do not want to be dicks or be the bad guy when it comes to making corrections so things are left as is, we all know how gracious some racers are when the time for criticism or advice or a correction is given (laugh), time constraints and the excuse of "i didnt have time because of the next race". Was this a contributing factor in the chain of events that lead to the fire, only those enforcing those standards know.

Also read that Ken didnt lose a whole lot, which in itself is great news considering he has a small countries GNP in that trailer. Grin.

[JIM MARCUM]

FYI: Just to show I am not the uneducated, inexperienced, trouble making idiot that some have suggested, I have edited my signature to better reflect my qualifications. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. JIM