Brushless motor winding class

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  • donhuff
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2014
    • 561

    #1

    Brushless motor winding class

    I'll try to explain some of the workings of our motors as best I understand it, and show how I go about rewinding a stator. I feel that I need to lay down some basics about the internals of the motors first. And to describe some of the terminology, so that we all understand each other without getting to confused. I'll capitalize the main parts when I describe them so pay attention to what I'm naming parts so we wont get confused later. And please call me out on something if you think I'm wrong or describing it incorrectly. I have not been schooled on any of this, it's just what I have learned on my own by reading and rewinding a couple of motors. And to give you an idea of how many motors that I have rewound so far. I just bought my 8th, 5 pound spool of wire. Each spool has 7850 feet of wire on it! 62800 feet or just shy of 12 miles! I am NOT claiming to know everything there is to know about these motors, but I do have a pretty good understanding of how they work and how too wind them.

    There aren't very many parts inside and I'll assume that ya'll know what a rotor is. So the main thing to explain is the stator and windings.

    The STATOR as I'm sure most of you know is the big chunk of steel surrounding the rotor. It holds the wires or BUNDLES of wires that are threaded through holes in the stator, called SLOTS. The wire goes through the slots and wraps around the stators TEETH, maybe just around one tooth, as in a CONCENTRATED wind. Or the wire can go around three teeth as in a DISTRIBUTED wind, More about this a lot later in this thread. When the wire goes through those slots, and wraps around those teeth, it does so in a particular couple of ways. One is that the wire will go around and round said tooth to form a COIL. This coil can be either one wire, or several wires that are eventually connected on both ends so as to act like one larger wire, and this is what I refer to as a BUNDLE. We have to use the bundle because we can't get just one big wire through the slots and make the 180* turn to go down the next slot. One big wire would be better but it ain't gonna happen! So when you make this coil you might wind it clockwise or counter clockwise. And ya better get it right! You'll be able to see on some of my pictures later, that the wind is following a certain CW or CCW pattern. Most of the winds that I use follow this CW or CCW pattern all the way around the stator. BUT THEN sometimes you get one that will have both CW and CCW in the same stator and it can get a little confusing. The Dynamite 3831 2000 kv 3 delta motor, is an example of this type of wind. (that last sentence has a "misprint" in it that I hope someone catches and points out)!

    The reason for the CW and CCW explanation is, if you connect a battery to a coil one wire on positive, and the other on the negative (don't know how you'd do it any other way) and the coil has a hole through the middle. And now insert a steel rod through that hole, or wrap the wire coil around a screwdriver. Take a magnet and hold it to the ends of the rod, making sure to use only one side (pole) of that magnet. You notice that the electro magnet that you made with the coil and rod has a north and a south. NOW switch the polarity of the wires going to your coil,and check the rod ends again, using that same side (pole) of the magnet. you'll see that the poles of the electro magnet have switched! Amazing isn't it!

    So in the coils that we made in our stator, lets say we made them all CCW, and so when the esc sends these coils a positive signal, lets say the stator teeth turn into north poles. This attracts the south pole magnets on the rotor. Just as the rotor gets about lined up on that position, the esc switches (commutates) and sends a negative signal to the coils, and this changes our stator coil teeth to a south pole, and thus attracts the upcoming north pole on the rotor! This is a very simplified explanation and not real accurate, because ther will be positive and negative charges flowing at the same time. And there will be north and south coils working at the same time too. And don't forget that third set of coils that aren't being energized, but instead are making electricty and sending a pulse back to the esc saying, here I am send positive down that wire--now here I am send negative down that wire-- now I'm over here do this. That esc is a smart and fast little sucker.

    The STATOR has an insulating coating on it to keep the windings from shorting between legs/phases. We have three wires going from the esc to the motor and these are what we'll call LEGs or PHASEs. I don't think that is an accurate way to describe them because on a true AC (alternating current) 3 phase electrical circuit, all three phases are hot . Not so on our DC brushless system. Two legs are hot, from the positive and negative poles of the battery/esc, and the third leg is carrying a "signal voltage" from the motor windings, back to the esc, called BACK EMF (electromotive force) generated by the third legs coil. This signal tells the esc what position the rotor is in, in it's rotation, so that the esc knows which set of coils to fire next.
    AmpDaddy
    don huff
  • donhuff
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2014
    • 561

    #2
    DSC_0004.jpg

    Here you can see a freshly reinsulated stator. Yo see the 18 holes in it that are called the SLOTS.

    In between the slots are whats called the TEETH, and these are what makes the magnet poles of the stator. The inner most portion of the tooth nearest the rotor, is what will do the work.

    With this stator we will be doing what I describe earlier as a DISTRIBUTED type of winding, meaning that we will wrap the wire around three teeth at a time instead of just one at a time. The wire will go in one slot then skip two slots, and go back up in the third slot. The other two legs will eventually fill the two slots that we left empty. So you can see that the coils overlap each other.

    This is a 2 TURN wind, so each BUNDLE of wire making up a LEG will go around each set of three TEETH that make up a COIL, twice. The last pic in the string below shows one completed coil that was wound CCW. All of the coils in this wind will be CCW. And in that last pic you can see that after coming up and out to finish the second pass in the right side slot of that coil, we now SKIP TWO SLOTS (from now on were going say sts to mean skip two slots cause you do it a lot) and go back in and down through. This will be the same thing that we did on the first coil. In a slot out the bottom sts and back up and out, that's one TURN, now going backward winding CCW go back into where we started this coil for your second pass down. Out the bottom sts and back up for the second turn and out the top again. That's two coils finished one more to go.

    DSC_0011.jpgDSC_0012.jpgDSC_0013.jpgDSC_0015.jpg
    AmpDaddy
    don huff

    Comment

    • zooma
      Local club FE racer
      • May 2014
      • 652

      #3
      Isn't the 3831 motor designated as 1.5D wind? Is that the misprint?

      Anyway, I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the next installment. Thanks
      Ron - The Villages, FL

      https://castawaysboatworx.org/

      Comment

      • donhuff
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2014
        • 561

        #4
        DSC_0016.jpgDSC_0019.jpg

        Here were working on that second coil, and finished with it we STS and start on the third coil.
        AmpDaddy
        don huff

        Comment

        • donhuff
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2014
          • 561

          #5
          winner winner chicken dinner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          yes, THEY describe it as a 1.5 D but I have no idea why. It's a 3 D the way I see it. It's an oddly done one in that it goes two turns then STS and do one turn CW and go back through the slot that has the two passes already through it, and that makes three don't it????
          AmpDaddy
          don huff

          Comment

          • donhuff
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2014
            • 561

            #6
            DSC_0002.jpg
            AmpDaddy
            don huff

            Comment

            • jaike5
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 561

              #7
              This is great Don. Clearly I'm going to have to get a practice stator to hone my winding skills (which I have none). Do you use a stator from one motor, rotor from an other , new bearings , new correct wire?
              Don't really want a 10 turn AQ motor with 3300 kv or so, but would like to make a stout motor for the class.
              Thx, Jay.

              Comment

              • donhuff
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2014
                • 561

                #8
                DSC_0022.jpg

                Here were coming up and out of the second turn on the third coil. I see now that I should have done this with a single wire to make things easier to see. I sometimes use single strands of cat5 cable to test a wind. The colored insulation on that wire makes it easier to see what's going where. I may stop her because I'm tired of doing this!!! And do it over using the cat5 wire. But I'll start back up here where we stopped. Unless it to confuzzzzzing and I need to go back over it.
                AmpDaddy
                don huff

                Comment

                • donhuff
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2014
                  • 561

                  #9
                  I should have said before that the last picture shows the completion of the three coils for the first LEG. We have two more sets of three coils coming later. So we have 9 coils in all. But now, you should have an idea of how the slots and teeth and coils come into play.
                  AmpDaddy
                  don huff

                  Comment

                  • fweasel
                    master of some
                    • Jul 2016
                    • 4286

                    #10
                    Keep it coming. I could read this stuff all day.
                    Vac-U-Tug Jr (13mph)

                    Comment

                    • donhuff
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2014
                      • 561

                      #11
                      " Do you use a stator from one motor, rotor from an other , new bearings , new correct wire? " AHHH I have been known to do that.


                      " Don't really want a 10 turn AQ motor with 3300 kv or so, but would like to make a stout motor for the class."

                      10 turns on an AQ is going to be a SLOW motor. The 2030kv is a 2 turn wye, I sometimes wind them at 3 delta and that gets around 2400 kv. 4 delta gets 1800 kv. So ya see that about a 25% increase in the length of wire that's going around a single coil results in about a 25% decrease in kv. The percentages change as you get more or less turns as to how it effects the kv percentage wise. But you see a high turn count is usually a low kv, and vice-versa low turns equals high kv. And Delta is 1.73 times Wye kv for the same number of turns.

                      I know that you were just using that as an example, but I wanted to explain that a little.
                      AmpDaddy
                      don huff

                      Comment

                      • ray schrauwen
                        Fast Electric Addict!
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 9471

                        #12
                        Very nice Don and thank you!

                        Reading...
                        Nortavlag Bulc

                        Comment

                        • T.S.Davis
                          Fast Electric Addict!
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 6220

                          #13
                          What are you re-insulating with? I can see where mine is chipped. Dead short int he making.

                          I am struggling to follow the pattern. Might not help me with my first one anyway. Trying to do a Dyno 2k.

                          It also appears you've attached your bundle to a piece of solid wire. Almost like a sewing needle. Makes sense. Just not sure how ya did it.
                          Noisy person

                          Comment

                          • donhuff
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2014
                            • 561

                            #14
                            To patch little chips in the stator insulation, I use thick ca. Sometimes have to put 2-3 coats to get it built up like I want, especially on the corners of the slot holes.

                            I suggest you just yank the wire out of your stator and get it cleaned up. Don't try to follow the pattern cause I can explain it to you here, and that wind is an odd one and very confusing until you understand a more simple wind.

                            NO, the wire is not attached to a needle, I turn the wire into a needle. Pics will explain.

                            DSC_0005.jpg
                            I figure out how long the wire bundle needs to be by using a single strand of cat5 wire. Leave 5-6 inches outside the stator to eventually become the lead for one leg, and then thread a single leg all the way around the stator leaving 5-6 inches on the exit wire to make one of the other leg leads, and add 6-8 inches more to the length to use to make the sewing needle.

                            I then screw a couple of sheet rock screws into the workbench at this length, and wrap wire around them to make my "BUNDLE" Keep the wire taught and it will be easier to work with.

                            DSC_0006.jpgDSC_0007.jpg

                            On one end using a small piece of folded sandpaper, 220-120 grit works good. Now sand the insulation off as best you can on a section 3-4 inches long. It needs to be clean as the CA will not stick to the insulation that well, plus this will make the diameter of the needle smaller. After sanding, wrap a piece of wire around the sanded part try to keep the strands all in a straight line and not spiraling around your needle. This will keep the needles diameter smaller.
                            AmpDaddy
                            don huff

                            Comment

                            • donhuff
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2014
                              • 561

                              #15
                              DSC_0008.jpgDSC_0009.jpg


                              Using scissors or dikes, cut your bundle off of the screws, and unwrap the wire holding your needle together. File a point on it to make it easier to get through the other wire in a slot. I use a 1" belt sander to form the point cause it's quicker but a file does ok too. Always be sure to sand or file towards the point, or you'll pull up a strand or two and make a mess of the needle. Sand the outside of the needle now to get rid of the ridges made by the glue sticking to the wrap. Put another coat of CA on the needle now to hopefully lock down all the strands.
                              DO NOT get the ca close to the "threaded" end of the needle where the wires start to flare out, as this will lock them in place, fanned out a little, and you'll never get it through the slots on your 2 or third pass, with other passes already in the slot.
                              AmpDaddy
                              don huff

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