Dynamite 3835 1500Kv

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  • donhuff
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2014
    • 561

    #46
    Ray,

    From everything I have read, any wire not going through the slots, is really just waste. The end turns add nothing to the motor except weight, but they have to be there. Compressing them is necessary ONLY to get the wound stator back into the case. This is why on cheap motors like the AQ, that do not have a lot of wire and a lot of room inside the case, the winding is not compressed. The straighter the wire is inside the slots, and the shorter the end turns, the better.

    Not compressing eliminates one step in the manufacturing process, so makes the motor cheaper to build. Plus not compressing eliminates the risk of causing a short because the wire is not mashed down on the stator and all it's sharp edges. Plus, it takes a good bit of special tooling to be able to compress, and not scratch or mess-up the wire. I'll spend almost a full day making the tooling, and it takes about 30 seconds to do the pressing.


    Only when trying to get the most copper, into the smallest package, is there a need to compress.

    Also, a Y wind usually takes up more room in the back end of a motor. Especially in a low turn wind like a 2Y. Reason being that Y connection can get pretty big, and takes up a lot of space. For instance in the AQ motor, there are 30 strands of .0105" wire in each of the three leads, and all three have to come together to make the Y, so there are 90 wires in that connection. It's tiny wire so even at 90, it doesn't look all that big.

    So lets take a Neu 1515 1Y 2200 for example. They call it a 1Y but for the life of me I don't know why. The wire makes two passes through the slots, and to me that makes it a 2. This is the exact same wind that the AQ 2030 uses, and also what the dyna 1500 uses, and they are both called a 2????? Just more electronics confusion I guess.
    But back to the point. The Neu 1515 2y has 40 strands in each leg, and the wire is pretty big at around .020 IIRC. So there are 120 strands in the Y connection, and it's BIG and has to be pressed down into the end turns on the rear of the motor. That takes up a lot of room. And that's why when comparing a Y with a D in the same motor brand and size. The Y will look "more full" than the delta looks. And the stator looks to be longer in the Y, it's not, it just has that big lump of wire on top of the end turns. And the Delta looks like they have some room left over inside that they did not fill.

    Now lets wind that same 1515 motor, but make it a delta and all that wire in the Y is now brought out as the leads. And with a 2 delta, the leads would have 80 strands in each one and that would be huge, especially when compared to lets say a 6 Y. We know from the 2Y, that the slots will hold 80 strands of wire, remember it has two passes 40 per pass. So for the 6 Y, lets take that 80 and divide by 6 because this wind will have 6 passes (turns) of the bundle, through each slot. 80 divided by 6 is 13.333333, and you'll be really luck if you can get 13 through there. I'd try 12, it's always easy..... until the last pass, and then you find out that 13 won't fit! But if you leave out just one strand, it's actually 6 strands that won't be in the slot! So you want to keep as much as you can in the bundles, but it becomes a compromise between filling it up and how much frustration you can take, because the more wire you use, the winding process gets harder and harder. As you can see even just one strand makes a huge difference. But to sum it up, now our 6Y is finished and the lead wires look pathetic what with only 12 strands in each one. And compared to the 2y at 40 strands and the 2D at 80 strands, it looks like the 6Y got cheated out of a lot of wire. But actually on the inside, they all have very close to the same amount.
    AmpDaddy
    don huff

    Comment

    • donhuff
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2014
      • 561

      #47
      "thank you for writing it up Don. What causes the discrepancy in actual kv for two motors rated at the same kv? Same wind, same wire thickness , what gives ?"


      Tolerance differences, a draggy bearing, end turns that didn't get pulled down as tightly as another motor, magnets that are stronger or weaker, maybe the magnets didn't get snugged down to the rotors shaft as tightly and they are closer to the stators teeth making a tighter air gap. This will make the kv a little lower but also increase the torque a little. If a motor gets to hot, the magnets can loose some of their strength and their pull to the stator will be reduced. This will lower the torque and raise the kv.

      It really works out to be pretty danged close to the same for a given motor brand and wind. Like with the AQ 2030, I have checked maybe 25 motors and they all run between 1900 and about 1970. With the most of them being 1930-1960


      This is with ONE motor brand and size, if that's what you meant. If your talking about between different brands, but with basically the same specs, then that's a whole different story.
      AmpDaddy
      don huff

      Comment

      • donhuff
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2014
        • 561

        #48
        Darin,

        I agree that there needs to be a dimension rule, and I think it should be 36x56mm I think even going to a 60mm long can is to much. I keep hearing the phrase "there's only so much power that you can get out of a motor" BS, there's always more in there, it just has to be found and extracted.


        Really? I'm "overthinking" it. I'm a motor guy, that's what I do. Doesn't matter what I'm racing or playing with, I always try to find out how it works and how I can improve it. I got into FE and Ltd and burned a motor or two. And then we went to the Michigan race and saw a lot of motors make smoke. I wanted to find out what was happening and see if I could rewind to be able to reuse an $80 motor and not just throw it in the trash, and also to see if the motor could be improved upon and not burn up so easily.

        I have not heard anyone ask, how do I make more power? Lots of people are just curious and wonder WHY. I'm trying to find out some of the why and explain it to anyone else that is interested.


        I'll just bet that your a pretty good driver and that's why you do well at racing. Hitting the start in the right position, Running in lane one, Staying out of trouble, slowing down when you need to, and finishing ALL your heats. This is the stuff that makes a winner. A motor won't do that for you.

        As an example. In P mono I run a leopard 4074/2200. It's the very first FE motor that I bought. Doug wanted me to buy a Neu 1515, but I'm cheap and couldn't see spending that much on a motor for a blasted electric (I'm really a gas guy) when I'll probably get rid of all this FE crap shortly after buying it! Well, I still have it all.
        But with that $60 Leopard, I have managed to do pretty good in the past few years. My first ever big race, the Atlanta Spring Nats 2015, I won first place, I have won P offshore in Michigan with it. This past year I won our Grand Prix Series P mono class with that same motor.

        And the reason for the success is I am a decent driver and the boat is slow, much slower that the same boat with a neu motor, and because of that, I stay right side up more than the faster boats do! So yes, I blame the motor and it's LACK of power, for my success. BTW I'm working on a new motor for one of my sons P boats, and it cost only $42. But it's turning out to be to fast so I'll have to prop down, to keep it upright.
        AmpDaddy
        don huff

        Comment

        • ray schrauwen
          Fast Electric Addict!
          • Apr 2007
          • 9472

          #49
          Lol, that's beautiful Don, thanks!

          I don't feel so bad selling a 1521 now and replacing it with an SSS motor. I won 3rd place a few years back at Michigan in q mono with an SSS 5684 1200kv motor.

          This Scorpion motor I've got is cherry, they stuffed 1.2mm wire in there making a 1y motor. Can't wait to try it out.
          Nortavlag Bulc

          Comment

          • donhuff
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2014
            • 561

            #50
            Yeah, sometimes a really powerful motor just gets a poor driver into trouble FASTER LOL. But put that powerful motor in the hands of a good driver, that knows how to set the boat up to handle it, and now you have a real winner.

            So you replaced a 40mm motor with a 56mm one? That aint motoring down Ray, even if the SSS is a "cheep Chinese" motor! You do know the Golden Rule for hot rodding don't you.

            If not, here ya go---- "There is NO replacement, for Displacement"

            I'd like to see inside of one of those scorpions, to see how they do that. From the pictures on the computer, they look to be Quality motors. If I use wire much bigger than about .017- .019 inch, it gets real hard to work with and very hard to get a good winding job out of it.

            I want to try a 1 turn just to see if it would work. But with the way I understand and do 2 turns and up, it doesn't look like it would work cause the "turn" would never make a complete loop around the teeth. I know that probably doesn't make sense to anyone but later I'll try to draw out how the "winds/coils/fields" (whatever they are called) are formed and what they do. That is if anyone is interested.
            AmpDaddy
            don huff

            Comment

            • Fluid
              Fast and Furious
              • Apr 2007
              • 8011

              #51
              ”There is NO replacement...for Displacement.”
              Of course there is, and hotrodders have used it for decades. It’s called forced induction.


              .
              ERROR 403 - This is not the page you are looking for

              Comment

              • donhuff
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2014
                • 561

                #52
                Her are a few pictures of an AQ 2030 that I have put my "turbo" 2Y wind in.

                As you can plainly see, the AQ is really low on wire size and count. I use .0155" wire compared to the stock .0105" stuff. I use less strands but with the larger diameter, that's all that will fit in the slots. This helps the torque a little by making the field stronger, but mainly it increases the efficiency a good bit. If you increase the efficiency only like 5% (which BTW is a big increase) this will increase the power by 20%, and that's a lot.

                If you increase the wire gage size by 2 like going from 30 awg to 28 awg, you increase the ampacity (ability to handle amps) of the wire by about 50%.

                But the big advantage is that it really helps the motor cope with the heat it produces. Now add good wire insulation like comes on good wire, and you have areal winner! The insulation that comes on all the Cheep motors is pure crap, and will melt with very little heat. Then you have massive shorts and a melt down...ie SMOKE!

                Lots of info here https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...s-checks-tests


                So here's the pictures for all us "overthinkers"

                DSC_5793.jpgDSC_5794.jpgDSC_5795.jpg

                easy to see the extra room inside and how I filled it up. You can also see why I had to press it down so as to be able to get the ends back on.

                And that is a "good" AQ with a full set of 30 strands, you can imagine how empty it would be if you were luck enough to purchase one of the motors that they put only 21 strands of wire in. I have run up on a couple of those. They were burned up of course, probably happened on the first run.
                AmpDaddy
                don huff

                Comment

                • ray schrauwen
                  Fast Electric Addict!
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 9472

                  #53
                  I'll do some strand counting later. I keep all my golden calves that are now burnt offerings.

                  That's a hell of a winding job there!! Bravo.

                  Where do you buy good wire?
                  Nortavlag Bulc

                  Comment

                  • donhuff
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2014
                    • 561

                    #54
                    [QUOTE=Fluid;714544]Of course there is, and hotrodders have used it for decades. It’s called forced induction.

                    I wondered if anyone would catch that. And yes you can make a lot of power with supercharging, but the motor will not be nearly as "flexible" as a bigger motor of equal power. But the improvements in electronics is beginning to make the boost a lot more manageable.

                    And let's not forget nitrous oxide and nitromethane, same principal. More oxygen in equals more power out. But still not as flexible/simple/reliable, as a plain ole big motor.
                    AmpDaddy
                    don huff

                    Comment

                    • donhuff
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2014
                      • 561

                      #55
                      Temco,

                      Good wire at reasonable prices, and fast shipping. You can go direct or get it off ebay

                      AmpDaddy
                      don huff

                      Comment

                      • ray schrauwen
                        Fast Electric Addict!
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 9472

                        #56
                        The re-wind you did looks like the Hobbyking SK motor windings.

                        How do you unscrew the front plate on the gold motors?

                        All my burnt 2030 gold cans are 21 wire winds, go figure...
                        Nortavlag Bulc

                        Comment

                        • donhuff
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2014
                          • 561

                          #57
                          I forgot to say that if you do order wire, be sure to get the 200c rated. It can take a lot of heat and not have a problem.

                          At the last race I came in from a limited offshore race where I cut an offshore buoy ON THE FIRST LAP! and had to make an extra lap. I was pushing hard trying to catch up, and flipped on the third lap, but luckily landed right side up and finished. After the race, and all the high fives, and smack talk, someone asked when I cut my rudder water line..............OMG

                          I ran to the pits untaped and to my surprise, no smoke got the temp gage and was amazed to see 215*F. I was very happy about no smoke, but nervous that I had hurt the motor.

                          No worries, I won the next two heats with ease.

                          That's some damn good wire/insulation.
                          AmpDaddy
                          don huff

                          Comment

                          • Ken Haines
                            Racer
                            • Jul 2007
                            • 647

                            #58
                            Hey Don,
                            I really have nothing to add here, but certainly enjoy reading your interesting motor posts.
                            Appreciate all the great info, if I'm not careful I may learn something. Keep up this good stuff,
                            and see you next week in Atlanta :)
                            Thx,
                            Ken
                            TenShock Brushless / Pro Marine
                            INSANE Boats / Rico Racing/ Castle Creations
                            2023, 2024 NAMBA & 2018 IMPBA FE High Points "National Champion"

                            Comment

                            • Doug Smock
                              Moderator
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 5272

                              #59
                              This thread proves my point that the P-LTD rules are a mess, and need to be replaced with simple physical dimension rule.

                              Will keep you people from over-thinking all this all the time... or maybe not...

                              I can't imagine how I've had the success I have, having never once adjusted my timing or torn apart one of these motors. Seems like a LOT of time spent on the WRONG end of the boat, when a $25.00 prop and some simple hand tools would benefit your performance exponentially by comparison.
                              This thread also proves why the "simple dimension rule" is flawed. It's not simple....
                              What happens when you "optimize" a motor that fits within the dimension rule (and the current weight that's been tossed around) then add the $25.00 prop and the simple hand tools?

                              Good work Don. I'll eventually move your motor info in it's own thread so it doesn't get lost.
                              MODEL BOAT RACER
                              IMPBA President
                              District 13 Director 2011- present
                              IMPBA National Records Director 2009-2019
                              IMPBA 19887L CD
                              NAMBA 1169

                              Comment

                              • Steven Vaccaro
                                Administrator
                                • Apr 2007
                                • 8723

                                #60
                                WOW Don, there is a wealth of great info here. thanks for sharing.
                                Steven Vaccaro

                                Where Racing on a Budget is a Reality!

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