Castle Hydra Firmware

[Ub Hauled]

I think we are missing a point here...
we are not supposed to keep trying to change settings (specially timing) in order to correct what was considered an "upgrade" to an older version to make it work properly.
An upgrade to me is supposed to fix bugs not create more and give us less performance.
I have met Joe Ford and he is always willing to solve Castle products bugs. He's probably talking to the tech guys about stuff he reads here and other forums to make a better product, isn't that right Joe? So let's post the symptoms (in details) so they can work it out.
My advise to the boating enthusiasts that are having problems is... go back to version
1.3 and reset the Tx to the ESC so you have a clean slate and a hassle free boat until this little software issue is resolved... unless you like to be frustrated at the pond.

[Raydee]

I wish that was possible with the newer HV controllers but right now it isn't. I am stuck with 1.4 unless I go back to my Hydra 240 and risk burning it up on 6s.

[Raydee]

Well I got some news from Joe Ford and he is looking into the problem.

[Ub Hauled]

Good deal Ray... hopefully it'll be fixed soon.

[Raydee]

Bumping this thread. UB, Mike, Taylor and anyone else that has experienced the problems with 1.4 can you please PM me.

[Raydee]

Big bump....4 months and counting.

[MarkF]

I am using the Hydra 240 HV 1.4 and I have no problems. I also run my timming on low. This has always been the best timming mode for all my boats and airplanes as well. Using normal or high timming only creates more heat, more amps and DOES NOT GO FASTER.. This goes for all motors, inrunners and outrunners. I'm surprised Joe that your not telling people to turn there timming down when they come on here and say they are running anything above low timming. I have been running electric saw boats for 9 years now and this has always worked the best for me.
Mark

[Boatman]

I run oval and no matter timing I could tell a difference. Running for 9 years you must at one time used a castle 120 since amps don't make speed. Did you change versions on those esc's? I'm not soo sure that the answer is to tell everyone just to keep on low timing because at this point I for one have tried this and it does nothing but still cause more heat. I simply am using the lower version and when told it is safe to use the higher version I will try it again. Good luck to all on this subject as it is trying when these units cost soo much. They are still quality in my book.

[MarkF]

Low timming is not a magic cure. If you still have heat then its your setup not the controller. The hot setups people run today dont like to run for very long before they heat up. In oval racing you are only out there for over 1 minute. When I oval raced [which I did for 4 years] if my setup wasnt a little on the hot side then that told me that I wasnt getting the most out of my setup. Buy the way amps do make speed I just prefer to get them with my props and not the timming mode. If you want to run for sport or longer run times then you have to keep propping down untill your not running hot. It doesn't matter which one you do you need to run the lower timming to get the best efficiency from the controller. At best you might get 1 or 2 mph with higher timming but your going to get it a greater expence and you risk hurting your batteries and controller. I guess if money is not a problem then test away at the higher timmings. For me, been there done that. So yes I stand buy my statemaent that everyone should run low timming. Maybe Joe Ford should give his thoughts on my statement.
Mark

[Fluid]

The "best" timing depends on the motor used and the amps drawn. To make a statement that low timing is always best can be misleading. Neu "D" wind motors certainly run best on the lowest timing, but that is because of their extremely low resistance. Neu "Y" wind motors do benefit performance-wise from more advanced timing - this is demonstrated on the GPS and at SAWs. Hacker motors give higher performance on higher timing - again confirmed on the SAW course. When I ran brushed motors I ran over 35 degrees of timing advance on my 05 SAW motors - anything less gave slower speeds.

The timing advance used has to match the time it takes to energize the motor coils, whether they are on the rotor or in the can the theory is the same. It takes a certain amount of time for each coil to energize and begin to pull the magents along, depending on the amp draw. Matching the timing advance to the amp draw and rpm will maximize the potential output of the motor. Note that most of what I have stated above is for maximum-effort racing applications of less then 2 minutes, not general sport running. Mark hit the mail on the head about run time - heat builds up and even most water cooling setups will not give much relief for a max-effort setup. Best to run a few mph slower with a milder setup and not risk burning down.

All that said, lower timing is usually - not always - safer in terms of overheating equipment. Joe at Castle doesn't really have to say much else, his instructions for the Hydra timing setting says it all. High timing is for maximum output on certain motors for short duration only. Low to medium timing is probably best for 90% of FE owners, so they are the timing modes that Castle recommends.




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[Raydee]

Just to be perfeclty clear all my motors are set on low timing and the only change was the firmware installed. Again 30* hotter and 5-7mph slower for the same runtime and setup. We are going to do a good test this weekend on my buds cat with one controller on 1.03 and another on 1.04 and post the results. There is no doubt in my mine which firmware will run better.

[MarkF]

Leave it to Jay to come on here to find the loop holes in what I'm trying to tell sport boater and beginners. Most of the people who come on here are not saw racers. They are however the biggest offenders of burning up controllers from thinking they are going to see a big difference if they bump the timming up. Even oval racers are running boats with more power than they need, do they need to be told to turn there timming up as well? [really] So tell me Jay who's really going to benefit from running anything higher than low timming other than the handfull of saw racers around the country. Call Castle and see what timming they recomend on any motor. I have Hacker outrunners and Neus in airplanes and they all benefit and run better from the lower timming. I did say you will go a little faster with higher timming but not anough the eye can see. Sure the GPS sees it. The timming lights see it. Although I have burned several controllers as have many other saw racers trying to go from low to high timming with out changing anything else in the boat But do you think its wise to tell everyone on a public forum its better and you will go faster if you use high timming. I dont think it is or worth it unless your trying to get that last 2 mph your short to get the record at a saw event. These are only my opinions and observations from running electric boats and airplanes 13 years.

Mark

[Boatman]

Just to be perfeclty clear all my motors are set on low timing and the only change was the firmware installed. Again 30* hotter and 5-7mph slower for the same runtime and setup. We are going to do a good test this weekend on my buds cat with one controller on 1.03 and another on 1.04 and post the results. There is no doubt in my mine which firmware will run better.

That pretty much sums it up for me. I have not run anything but low timing am just CURIOUS as to why the newer or revised software runs hotter. I am and wont go against your recomendations Mark, I believe you 100% I am really just more curious as to why the upgrade causes more heat, well yes, and a slight variance in speed. Thats really all. Not looking for a record, just a answer to why it runs the controllers and motors differently. This for me isnt about the timing, but about the software.

[MarkF]

Not sure why the new software gets hotter. Are you running the boat exactley like you did before. Is it running wetter or are your lipos warmed up this time ? Is it hotter out side ? You would be surprised how much cooler everything runs when its cold out side and just the oposite when it gets hot out. Whenever a new software comes out it rarely means your boat is going to go faster. If 1.3 works then dont fix it. My hydra HV only has 1.4 and on my 10s hydro it works great and doesn't get hot. Dont figure

Mark

Mark

[Joe Ford]

Gentlemen...the following is what Castle's engineering department has found regarding the Hydra software versions. We spent quite a bit of time to test this.

"Timing on version 1.03 does not operate as intended. Normal timing is approximately 16 degrees. I would consider this too high for optimum performance on most motors. If the timing was changed via Castle Link the result would be as follows:

Low: 16.25 degrees
Normal: 16.25 degrees
Race: 10.75 degrees
Extreme: 16.25 degrees

If the timing was changed via stick programming and power was not removed directly after Motor Timing was set (in other words the user continued to set another setting such as Cutoff Voltage), then the timing was always set to 16.25 degrees.

If the user unplugged the unit directly after Motor Timing was set, then the user would get the same timing values as Castle Link would set. (16.25,16.25,10.75,16.25)

This obviously was not correct and was fixed in version 1.04. In version 1.04 the timing values are consistent if programmed via Castle Link or stick programming. The values are as follows:

Low: 4.75 degrees
Norm: 9 degrees
High: 12.75 degrees
Highest: 16.25 degrees

I also tested the units on the bench to determine if there were any other issues that may have resulted in excess heat. I ran a controller to steady state temperature using the version 1.03 firmware on default timing. Then repeated the test with version 1.04. As expected, the timing was different between the two. Also, the temperature and current measurements were consistent with timing.

The test running 1.03 firmware had a current draw of approximately 3 amps higher than 1.04. The steady state temperature of the 1.03 firmware test was approximately 3-4 degrees higher (as a result of the increased current).

There are two known 'issues' with the Hydra software.

Known issue 1: When updating from version 1.03 to 1.04 you MUST recalibrate. Failure to do so will cause the controller to not reach FULL THROTTLE (as indicated by the LED not going to a steady ON).

Known issue 2: When stick programming voltage cutoff on either version 1.03 or 1.04 the programming options are 4, 5, 6, 7.2, 9, 12. However, in the instructions, they are listed as 4,5,6,9,12 (7.2 was removed when the instructions were written for the Hydra line).

The customers who are using v1.04, and feel it has caused their boats to slow down and temps to increase are probably split into two camps.

1) Those who forgot to recalibrate their unit after updating. These guys would likely see a very dramatic decrease in speed as a result of not reaching full throttle. They also would probably see an increase in temperature because they were consistently running at 90% throttle.

2) Those who calibrated their unit and noticed a decrease in top end. This was probably accompanied by lower ESC and motor temperatures. This was caused by the timing being 'fixed'. You can see the numbers above, and if the user sets their timing to 'Highest' on v1.04, the unit should run exactly as it did using the v1.03 firmware."

Sorry it took so long to get this data guys...we needed to make sure the results were 100% correct.