1/6th Scale Crackerbox - Ruleset

[chuckc]

Gentleman, On both this and RRR forum, everybody is taking some cheap shots at a proposed 1/6 SCALE Crackerbox boat set of rules. If the straight shaft ruling is not what you like to use. Then by all means go with what makes your body tingle. I think that straight shaft rule scares alot of boaters from scale 1/8, 1/10th and 1/12th Hydro's. Scale is scale, Drivers, IP gauges, fake motor etc. I believe the intention of this class (not a NAMBA approved class) NOW, was in the spirit of a National build for modelers and racers that were coming to the 2010 Nat's. The National Registry was started with the intent of "No Duplication) of names and P #'s.

If the Idea was to regulate this Scale set of Rules, and you or your club want to modify them, Go have a ball and build and race at your club level or race by yourself. I'm not throwing arrows, but somebody wrote 95% don't race. Don't quite know how that number got there, but I disagree, Are you saying 95% of club members don't race? or are we using 95% don't go to a sanctioned race. I'll live with the later.

Cracker boxes are not for every one, I race nothing but Hydro's. I think this a fun new thing to learn how to build and set up. It doesn't mean I'm going to force my fellow club members to build it and spec a Club Class though. It's a one time boat for the National's for me. Cheap to build and I have enough motors to build a SCALE model and race it, and I think we should all sit back and try to understand;
1. The Concept, 2. The Build, and 3. The execution of the race.

If you build it your way, and decide in June, your going to Colorado and want to race it, I don't think you'll be kicked off the pond, but if you beat me, I'll challenge the integrity of the boat not meeting the 1/6 SCALE Rules.

With all that said, Let cooler heads prevail, build it U'r way and enjoy and Understand Rules are a Standard in NAMBA and IMPBA. Districts and Clubs can modify these rules, but at a sanctioned event, The Rules are Rules. I have yet to see a tear down of a gas motor at any event I went to participate in or watch. so, that's enough of me today.

[Hydromaniac]

Darin, I am NOT questioning the hull rules. A manufacturer, who doesn't do email or otherwise do COMPUTER asked me to find out about some items. I got two responses on this thread. One that says they don't see why not if allowed by APBA and another that says No. No problem! I just need to let the guy know before he produces his kit! Got it?

MY problem is with the strut...which you say you can understand. But every time somebody brings up the question about the strut, people on here go ballastic and intimate we are stupid or something if we don't agree with subsurface drive! I've had it because of the attitude. Randy has the BEST idea. Let's vote on it. If subsurface wins, so be it, but don't just shut us out because some of you are saying it's my football, if you don't play by my rules I'm taking my football and going home! Jeeeez. YOU, Darin are blowing things out of proportion as it seems you are wont to do frequently. Yes, you build nice boats and you win a lot of races. You are admired for your talents. But remember, 95% of model boaters do not race. I fear you have elevated yourself to a station above that most people care about. A little more humility might serve you well.

I had a conversation with Mack Products / Legend Boats and a few things came up. He was not aware that the hull under these rules could have up to a 5 degree dead rise per side so this eleminates the need for non trips, Also he is very much in favor of the under hull straight shaft set up, as that is the way they were designed and has already proven they can work well in his Jersey Skiffs, His CB kits are quite a while out as he has other projects ahead in order to get ready for a big Boat Museum show, early next year.

[sailr]

ABSOLUTELY!

You aren't missing anything... It's just another discussion. These kind always go this way... We'll all have beers together when it's all said and done...

[Darin Jordan]

I'm going to build the hull, per specs ,(31 by 9 3/4 and wait until the dust clears, for the drive set up..... Larry

And this illustrates my point on some of this, and the frustration I'm sure many are feeling...

While people squabble and fight over how the freaking strut rule should be... People are left hanging...

Meanwhile, some of you say "well, hell... build it how you want and let's see what works..."....

The last time I took a sample... WATER hadn't changed in, oh... I don't know... MILLENIA.... This isn't a NEW concept in RC boating folks... Everyone KNOWS how they are going to handle... one way or the other...

I'm sure I'm not the only one who does NOT want to put the time, effort, and money into this project, only to find out later that I have to change things around to either 1) Comply with the now "official" rules, or 2) Be competitive when the now "official" rules make my setup un-competitive...

I really don't give a rip which way you choose to go... maybe we'll all NEVER agree... Most likely case, since FE-ers can't seem to ever agree on anything...

At this point, I'm inclinded to bag this project as well.... Would have been fun, but not if we have factions building this way and that, and not willing to just follow a very simply set of rules...

I'll watch and see as well... If the outcome makes sense, I'm on board. Otherwise, there are plenty of other classes to race.

[sailr]

Good. Glad you talked to Rich and cleared that up. Thanks.

I had a conversation with Mack Products / Legend Boats and a few things came up. He was not aware that the hull under these rules could have up to a 5 degree dead rise per side so this eleminates the need for non trips, Also he is very much in favor of the under hull straight shaft set up, as that is the way they were designed and has already proven they can work well in his Jersey Skiffs, His CB kits are quite a while out as he has other projects ahead in order to get ready for a big Boat Museum show, early next year.

[Hydromaniac]

And this illustrates my point on some of this, and the frustration I'm sure many are feeling...

While people squabble and fight over how the freaking strut rule should be... People are left hanging...

Meanwhile, some of you say "well, hell... build it how you want and let's see what works..."....

The last time I took a sample... WATER hadn't changed in, oh... I don't know... MILLENIA.... This isn't a NEW concept in RC boating folks... Everyone KNOWS how they are going to handle... one way or the other...

I'm sure I'm not the only one who does NOT want to put the time, effort, and money into this project, only to find out later that I have to change things around to either 1) Comply with the now "official" rules, or 2) Be competitive when the now "official" rules make my setup un-competitive...

I really don't give a rip which way you choose to go... maybe we'll all NEVER agree... Most likely case, since FE-ers can't seem to ever agree on anything...

At this point, I'm inclinded to bag this project as well.... Would have been fun, but not if we have factions building this way and that, and not willing to just follow a very simply set of rules...

I'll watch and see as well... If the outcome makes sense, I'm on board. Otherwise, there are plenty of other classes to race.

Darin I know what you're saying but lets not throw in the towel just yet.

[sailr]

Darin,

Thanks for your post. You have just written the BEST "sum-up" of this issue and I applaude you for that. It may likely eventually become a NAMBA rule. Then those of us who don't race at the Nats, etc. but do still race locally, will face the nitpickers who hang on every technicality. There doesn't seem to be a consensus so I too am bowing out for now. I think it would have been a great class to run and a lot of fun but I'm one of the holdouts for the 'outback' strut because it seems the majority of those who ran 1/10th scale said the boats ended up upside down more often than not, saying the subsurface drive was the problem. They say that's why the class died. I'd like to see the class succeed so I'm simply suggesting we HAVE THE OPTION regarding the drive setup. There must be some reason the gas guys use the struts behind the boat?

I may not have explained myself very well. Those 95% I speak of don't race on a wide scale because of the devisive issues they see going on amongst the hard core racers. I know a lot of them that WOULD race but in effect, they are intimidated by the 'hot dogs' or just don't want to be part of the drama. Some have been to one race and were so 'put down', ignored or ridiculed by the hot dogs that seem to resent a newbie with a thirst for knowledge being there, that they never go back. Some still 'race' at the friendlier local clubs, however. I quit model boating about 25 years ago for this reason. I loved racing with Herb Stewart and John Otto and the gang. I would have a ball racing around a 50-100 mile radius with the various clubs. But when it came to state championship races, etc. all the A$$HOLE so-called pro's came out of the woodwork and made life miserable for the rest of us. I got back into boating about 4 years ago and hoped things had changed. It appears there are still those who do not wish the rest of us to have a good time, only impose their "expert" opinions and rules on the rest of us without allowing us to contribute to the discussion without bashing and ridiculing us. I'm gonna hang in and still try to race locally because there are some GREAT guys around here like Don Wollard, Ken Haines, Mike Martin, Doug Twaits, Ray Rankl and more. They always have time for the new guy and a great! But sadly, there are too many of the opposite persuasion as well. Well, I have an excuse anyway as my health won't let me go on long trips as I used to.

I'm with you. If this ever gets sorted out, maybe my interest will be rekindled but for now I'm going to bow out too. Too bad. Coulda been a blast.

And this illustrates my point on some of this, and the frustration I'm sure many are feeling...

While people squabble and fight over how the freaking strut rule should be... People are left hanging...

Meanwhile, some of you say "well, hell... build it how you want and let's see what works..."....

The last time I took a sample... WATER hadn't changed in, oh... I don't know... MILLENIA.... This isn't a NEW concept in RC boating folks... Everyone KNOWS how they are going to handle... one way or the other...

I'm sure I'm not the only one who does NOT want to put the time, effort, and money into this project, only to find out later that I have to change things around to either 1) Comply with the now "official" rules, or 2) Be competitive when the now "official" rules make my setup un-competitive...

I really don't give a rip which way you choose to go... maybe we'll all NEVER agree... Most likely case, since FE-ers can't seem to ever agree on anything...

At this point, I'm inclinded to bag this project as well.... Would have been fun, but not if we have factions building this way and that, and not willing to just follow a very simply set of rules...

I'll watch and see as well... If the outcome makes sense, I'm on board. Otherwise, there are plenty of other classes to race.

[sailr]

I thought so. It is so long as you totally agree with the Gods.

This is still a 'forum', right ??

[Darin Jordan]

....but I'm one of the holdouts for the 'outback' strut because it seems the majority of those who ran 1/10th scale said the boats ended up upside down more often than not, saying the subsurface drive was the problem.

The straight shaft, subsurface drive, was NOT the problem...

There are some things that rules can't fix...

You also can't equate what happens with a 20"-ish boat that weighs under 2lbs RTR, to what is going to happen with a 30"-ish boat that will likely be nearly 5lbs...

Straight shafts work just fine in our 1/10th Scale unlimiteds... Straight shafts also work well in most of the EURO ECOs racing overseas... It's not the shaft layout that is the issue here...

Sorry guys... not trying to be an a$$... but that's just the plain truth... I have NO idea if I can tune one of these things or not... but I KNOW, and have SEEN, those who can... and it usually involves some careful selection of working of the prop...

AND, by the way... I'm sure most haven't noticed... but I'm NOT pushing for a shaft config, one way or the other... I don't really care what you run... I just want to know WHAT it will be.

[sailr]

Chuck,

With all due respect, I never saw that this was a true SCALE event. Maybe that is my mistake. If true SCALE, then there is no question about the strut. For whatever reason, I read into it that it was more of a "fun scale". I think it's when everybody said that 1/10th died because of the upside down nature of the boats due to the subsurface drive. It was then proposed that this one item be made optional and then all heck broke loose amongst the purists. Sorry if I contributed to the squabble.

The question remains: Is it PURE SCALE or not? If so, then have fun. I'm not out because of the strut issue, I just don't have the time to put in tiny instruments, measure everything with a micrometer, etc. I admire those that build absolutely breathtakingly beautiful scale boats only to have 'em ripped up racing. I build my boats to look good but know that more likely sooner than later somebody is gonna run over it anyway.

Gentleman, On both this and RRR forum, everybody is taking some cheap shots at a proposed 1/6 SCALE Crackerbox boat set of rules. If the straight shaft ruling is not what you like to use. Then by all means go with what makes your body tingle. I think that straight shaft rule scares alot of boaters from scale 1/8, 1/10th and 1/12th Hydro's. Scale is scale, Drivers, IP gauges, fake motor etc. I believe the intention of this class (not a NAMBA approved class) NOW, was in the spirit of a National build for modelers and racers that were coming to the 2010 Nat's. The National Registry was started with the intent of "No Duplication) of names and P #'s.

If the Idea was to regulate this Scale set of Rules, and you or your club want to modify them, Go have a ball and build and race at your club level or race by yourself. I'm not throwing arrows, but somebody wrote 95% don't race. Don't quite know how that number got there, but I disagree, Are you saying 95% of club members don't race? or are we using 95% don't go to a sanctioned race. I'll live with the later.

Cracker boxes are not for every one, I race nothing but Hydro's. I think this a fun new thing to learn how to build and set up. It doesn't mean I'm going to force my fellow club members to build it and spec a Club Class though. It's a one time boat for the National's for me. Cheap to build and I have enough motors to build a SCALE model and race it, and I think we should all sit back and try to understand;
1. The Concept, 2. The Build, and 3. The execution of the race.

If you build it your way, and decide in June, your going to Colorado and want to race it, I don't think you'll be kicked off the pond, but if you beat me, I'll challenge the integrity of the boat not meeting the 1/6 SCALE Rules.

With all that said, Let cooler heads prevail, build it U'r way and enjoy and Understand Rules are a Standard in NAMBA and IMPBA. Districts and Clubs can modify these rules, but at a sanctioned event, The Rules are Rules. I have yet to see a tear down of a gas motor at any event I went to participate in or watch. so, that's enough of me today.

[Darin Jordan]

Some have been to one race and were so 'put down', ignored or ridiculed by the hot dogs that seem to resent a newbie with a thirst for knowledge being there, that they never go back.

Well I don't know what kind of clubs these guys are going to, but if they show up at ours, they are hooked for life... There isn't ONE person in our club of over 35 people who has, or would, treat anyone this way... So if this is the perception of what's happening, it's the WRONG one. Personally, I find it completely inconceivable... especially at an FE event... Hell, we bring extra boats to ours just in case someone new shows up and wants to give it a go. I don't think I've meet anyone from any other FE club who would treat anyone this way either...

Send them to our club... We'll hook them up!

[sailr]

1. NO
2. As Darin said, it will likely become a NAMBA class
3. Without a true set of guidlines, again, as Darin said, it's a waste of time.
4. Thank you for your input.
5. I will add you to the vote for subsurface drive.

sailr I have a question for you? are you coming to the 2010 Colorado FE Nationals?
If not then these rules DO NOT effect you. Build your own way, show them how its done or follow these PROPOSED rules and see what happens.

Personally I think the gas guys ran out of ideas to make Cboxs run right and use the strut on the back as a crutch IMO, which I am entitled to...


OH and the title of THIS thread is 1/6 SCALEcracker box these guys are trying to follow the straight shaft set up.

Personally I vote for straight shaft, it makes the boat a wild ride. But I am not gonna race them so I don't really care.

[Darin Jordan]

I think it's when everybody said that 1/10th died because of the upside down nature of the boats due to the subsurface drive.

OK, to set the record straight... (no pun intended)... 1/10th scale Crackerbox "died" for the same reason that N1 is "dead"... They were brushed motor boats, that were SLOW (Crackerbox SAW record is a whopping 24mph... ), and maintaining brushed motors is a PAIN IN THE A$$....

Further, to make them RUN with any speed at all, you had to set them up VERY, VERY loose...

And hulls were not readily available after DPI went out of business...

Etc., etc., etc.....

Look... N2-Mono and several of the other small boat classes have very similiar issues... SMALL boats don't handle ANY kind of big waves... which occur more times than not... We used to have O-Mono heats where only one out of 6 boats would finish... WAY too much power for WAY too small a boat... People keep trying with those, however, because you don't have to turn comms...

It was NOT the shaft configuration...

[sailr]

Darin,

You have a great club and I applaude you. We too have just built a 'demo' boat for everybody that shows up to run. Unfortunately we only have about 10 guys right now because of a lack of local 'water'. We have to travel about 80 miles each time we run but we're working on that.

There are some really great and friendly FE clubs but since pure FE clubs are so few and far between, a lot of guys have to go to Nitro/gas races that begrudgingly allow a class or two of FE. I should have made that clear. We have tried, without success, to integrate into two large clubs here that run nitro and gas. With all due respect to them, however, they run so many classes that they simply don't have TIME to include FE classes/heats. We have asked if we could use their facility on an 'off weekend' to host a race. They are not willing to share their water with us FE guys even though we too are NAMBA members. We would all join their club but it wouldn't make any difference with their current President. One of the clubs did include us in a one day race with three classes and we had a ball. However, the District Namba director at a recent meeting more or less said he didn't care about electrics and we could work out our own problems. Nice, eh? We try to make everybody welcome at our club even if they have a radio shack boat. The Wave Blasters is another GREAT group of guys. I think their secret to success is they include sailboaters, scale electrics, etc. They welcome everybody that likes things that run on and under the water! I have found in general that FE boaters are a far friendlier group. A few of the nitro guys that moved over to FE seem to have brought their attitudes with them. That doesn't help our clubs at all. Sad.

Well I don't know what kind of clubs these guys are going to, but if they show up at ours, they are hooked for life... There isn't ONE person in our club of over 35 people who has, or would, treat anyone this way... So if this is the perception of what's happening, it's the WRONG one. Personally, I find it completely inconceivable... especially at an FE event... Hell, we bring extra boats to ours just in case someone new shows up and wants to give it a go. I don't think I've meet anyone from any other FE club who would treat anyone this way either...

Send them to our club... We'll hook them up!

[sailr]

Good points.

The straight shaft, subsurface drive, was NOT the problem...

There are some things that rules can't fix...

You also can't equate what happens with a 20"-ish boat that weighs under 2lbs RTR, to what is going to happen with a 30"-ish boat that will likely be nearly 5lbs...

Straight shafts work just fine in our 1/10th Scale unlimiteds... Straight shafts also work well in most of the EURO ECOs racing overseas... It's not the shaft layout that is the issue here...

Sorry guys... not trying to be an a$$... but that's just the plain truth... I have NO idea if I can tune one of these things or not... but I KNOW, and have SEEN, those who can... and it usually involves some careful selection of working of the prop...

AND, by the way... I'm sure most haven't noticed... but I'm NOT pushing for a shaft config, one way or the other... I don't really care what you run... I just want to know WHAT it will be.