NAMBA P-LIMITED Motor List - Pro Boat Motors NO LONGER AVAILABLE

[jevmax]

Jim, the problem with hand outs is the cost to host an event. A club like MMEU would be looking to supply motors and batteries for maybe 50 boats give or take. We could pass the cost on to the racers but who's coming when the entry fee for each spec class is $150

Good point Terry. Back in the 1990s when I used to hold the ROAR Nats and the U.S.Oval Masters at Lake Whipporwill International Speedway in Orlando, the “handout” motor method always worked great and really leveled the playing field. The motors and cells were provided to me at below wholesale cost by a race sponsor. After the race was over the sponsor had the option of having us return the excess or I would offer the excess cells and motors for
sale in the Pro-Shop. Nobody ever complained about the cost. The competitors were happy to get a motor and cells below wholesale cost! Of course it was different with RC cars. Every year I had to limit the entries to no more than 100. However, FE boat racing is much smaller. Maybe the larger numbers made it feasible for us back then.

[T.S.Davis]

I'm not sure Jim. I'd have to think on it some.

With a sponsor like that, they are getting the value of the exposure to 100 racers. Could be that's pretty good exposure to dollar ratio. Enough to justify the investment. The biggest FE race in the states to my knowledge was only 62 racers. HA! Think you were there Jim. Of those racers, about 24 were racing LSH at the time. Then maybe another 24 racing LSO. Most of them were the same guys running different days with the same 12 Nimh packs. At that time it wasn't uncommon.

Quick math on a small nats to do it today if we got deals on stuff might be.....
Motor $50....ish....maybe?
4s5000 say maybe $75....ish?
6 classes x maybe 10 entries average......

so $3000 in motors and $4500 in batteries. Assuming you could find sponsors willing to front that.

The battery sponsor would essentially lose about $30 a pack if they resold them. So an $1800 profit hit. I've not seen that kind of dough from any sponsor of an FE event. NATS or otherwise. Ever. Brand loyalty doesn't seem to happen for FE sponsors. FE guys will order off ebay to save 7$ shipping even though they have to way 10 more days and it's damaged when it gets there. It's an odd thing in truth.

Then there is the issue of building your boat to fit battery x,y,z. We may run three different battery configurations in my kids Stealth depending on the wind. Those packs will NOT go into a Raptor rigger. Not happening. Then in offshore I like the weight so I carry 8k. Don't need 8k until about the 4th lap but finishing is king in OS.

[longballlumber]

I'm not sure Jim. I'd have to think on it some.

With a sponsor like that, they are getting the value of the exposure to 100 racers. Could be that's pretty good exposure to dollar ratio. Enough to justify the investment. The biggest FE race in the states to my knowledge was only 62 racers. HA! Think you were there Jim. Of those racers, about 24 were racing LSH at the time. Then maybe another 24 racing LSO. Most of them were the same guys running different days with the same 12 Nimh packs. At that time it wasn't uncommon.

Quick math on a small nats to do it today if we got deals on stuff might be.....
Motor $50....ish....maybe?
4s5000 say maybe $75....ish?
6 classes x maybe 10 entries average......

so $3000 in motors and $4500 in batteries. Assuming you could find sponsors willing to front that.

The battery sponsor would essentially lose about $30 a pack if they resold them. So an $1800 profit hit. I've not seen that kind of dough from any sponsor of an FE event. NATS or otherwise. Ever. Brand loyalty doesn't seem to happen for FE sponsors. FE guys will order off ebay to save 7$ shipping even though they have to way 10 more days and it's damaged when it gets there. It's an odd thing in truth.

Then there is the issue of building your boat to fit battery x,y,z. We may run three different battery configurations in my kids Stealth depending on the wind. Those packs will NOT go into a Raptor rigger. Not happening. Then in offshore I like the weight so I carry 8k. Don't need 8k until about the 4th lap but finishing is king in OS.

Just my opinion, I wouldn't focus on batteries. voltage is voltage. Stick with the motors.

[jevmax]

Just my opinion, I wouldn't focus on batteries. voltage is voltage. Stick with the motors.

That’s a good point. Maybe just need to control the motors.

[Ken Haines]

This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.

I agree with Terry, and had some input on this while on vacation with him a couple weeks ago.

Also, reading too many here are soooo good with the idea of the P-Ltd classes going away....
I am definitely not and believe that this could seriously wreck the current FE participation
as we know it today. Many of us still attend and have a lot of equipment, let's not be so
cavalier about working this out properly. I will say that as I was originally opposed to
the dimensional rules, time has proven Darin and others right on the possibility of the
original motors someday going away. So here we are just in time to tweak things for next year.
I would like there to be enough length for the Turnigy motor 60.25mm, the rest looks good to
me. I do believe that putting the IMPBA suggested 258 gram limit would be a good backstop
to definitely keep the Neu 1415 out of the class simply because that motor is just too good.
Could be simple to even state in the proposal. "The Neu Model 1415 is not legal for the P-Ltd Classes"

Another comment.....It would seem like a good idea to touch base on this rule
proposal with the guys that travel all over the place and have who have taken
the lead in other NAMBA districts before the concrete sets on the final details.
This would also provide better support nationwide for the eventual vote itself.
Arguably would be quite the opposite from the 1/8 Scale Motor Rule Vote and subsequent controversy.
Just a suggestion

[Darin Jordan]

I can promise you that, if you put together a situation where, in order to be "legal", you are required to be swapping motors in/out all the time, or you have to frequently pull a motor to be weighed, participation will drop. What a hassle.

For handout motors... It'd be even more expensive that Terry described, because what is going to stop someone from over-propping the crap out of their system while they have a motor in, and then handing it in?? Next guy gets a pretty worn out motor.

Honestly, guys... you are WAY overthinking this.

[T.S.Davis]

Not sure what the margins are on motors. $30 maybe? I suspect it's more. Another $1800 profit hit for someone IF he re-sells them for cost etc. I may be under thinking that.

Then which motor do you pick? We're currently debating 60mm......or 60.2mm. Anybody want to decide if for the nats it's a Raider 2030/ Raider1750/Turnigy/Leopard/TP/SSS/Promarine/Dynamite 1500/Dynamite 2000/Himax/Aquacraft 2030/AQ1800/ahhhhhhhh?

Once you make that determination, anyone truly interested in racing at the nats (or what ever we call it) would need to go out and buy for testing a number of those motors to get their boats sorted. Market cornered for that season. Woohoo! Good day to be the soul supplier of those motors! Heck, I was accused of being in Fine's pocket for supporting parallel packs. Wanna guess how it will go if we just pick any one of those as the "handout"? We lost a pocket of FE guys already because they felt that exactly happened already with Proboat and Aquacraft.

Wouldn't it be wayyyyyy more simple.....er....er to just have a length x width specification? (Notice I dropped the weight?) No brand required, no list, no favoritism, no way to cheat, but more importantly it seems, no way for someone to suggest that someone was cheating when they weren't. I see that more than I see cheating and I watch for these things.

Oh and there will still be the possibility, however remote, of a guy going into a local hobby shop and coming out with a race boat. Name another power level that you could waltz into a store and come out with something race able? I can't think of any but I'm ignorant to the ways of the fuel burners.

[T.S.Davis]

. It'd be even more expensive that Terry described, because what is going to stop someone from over-propping the crap out of their system while they have a motor in, and then handing it in?? .

Didn't even think of that.

We've already seen different batches of the exact same motor have different quality. Some had different wire. So I bought motors to get my boat sorted. I get it perfect. I know the prop, the cg, the strut. It's coming in at 105 degrees. I drop in the handout and burn it to the water line in the second lap. Takes my esc with it.

[Doby]

Honestly, guys... you are WAY overthinking this.

Captain Obvious LOVES this comment! Truer words were have never been spoken (or typed)

[Doug Smock]

Doug, go in to your local hobby shop and buy a gas race boat. How about a P sport? Right off the shelf. Not happening is it? So he finds someone to show him how to build one. Really want brand new guy racing 70mph with his first boat? Good plan.

This new idea, what ever it comes down to (36 x whatever?) is only going to be controversial if we make it so. As it is, we're merely discussing the length of the can and how to keep a 1415 out. Other than that...............what other controversy is there on this? Egos aside.

Terry my brother,
I'm pretty sure you can't buy a gas "race boat" a local hobby shop. Yet gas is the fastest growing segment of the hobby. Interesting huh?
As a matter of fact the Super Sport Mono class (Stock 260 Zen and a tuned pipe) numbers are exploding. That engine rule saved Crackerbox BTW. I wonder what, if anything we can learn from the gas guys? Ever wonder if9+years of Limited motor debates has had any effect on FE growth?

I see seasoned racers (nitro, gas, AND FE) that can't handle their 70mph boat so please understand why I fail to see your point there.

So limited classes ARE beginner classes? I think that was a point of contention to at one time.
The "bring your RTR and come race" went out the window a long time ago didn't it? Todays RTRs don't require any modifications / component changes to be competitive at a race like the Cup?

We're set for 2019 and beyond I think. 36.5 x 56.5 is what D13 will be running in the GP series.
As usual we'll see what's happening out there before the Spring Nats. is posted. That way we can continue to attract all those cross over "traveling racers" that have been left on the bank because of the lack of official IMPBA motor rules that don't mirror NAMBA.

I agree on the handouts fellas, motor only. Get a deal if you can, pass the cost on in the entry fees, racer takes them home. I certainly wouldn't want to be handed one for a race that a "stator baker" ran for five rounds... Will I enter the classes, probably not...

Happy Thanksgiving fellas!

[T.S.Davis]

Ever wonder if9+years of Limited motor debates has had any effect on FE growth?

Ever wonder if we had it right to begin with if there would have been a single drop of debate ever? Not sure if I need to get a siren with maybe a neon sign saying we blew it. Had we went size from day one there would have been no debate. I'll bet even the Wisconsin boys would still be racing FE.

Limited was never intended to be a beginner class. It's a place for new guys and vets to run together. Chris Flemmings cat was out of the box. Won a national championship. Mike Stancombes boat was out of the box. Won a championship in Texas. So yes it can and has been done. Not a lot of stores have those on the shelves but he's working on it.

If experienced guys can't handle going 70...............the new guy is better equipped to handle it? You lost me there.

We're down to the length being the only real thing in question. Accept the "handout" idea which is a disaster in the making. $50+ entry per class wont get guys to race.

[Doug Smock]

Limited was never intended to be a beginner class. It's a place for new guys and vets to run together. Chris Flemmings cat was out of the box. Won a national championship. Mike Stancombes boat was out of the box. Won a championship in Texas. So yes it can and has been done. Not a lot of stores have those on the shelves but he's working on it.

Mike out of the box RTR is where it's at. Stick a fork in it we're done here!

[HTVboats]

This thread started to address the "motor list" and or lack of availability. If you just select a handful of motors you will be at the mercy of manufactures and eventually wind up right back here with unavailable motors. Opening it up with a 36X60 limit that has 20+ motors takes care of that. It also sets limits that RTR manufacturers may adhere to sell products. A manufacturer easily puts a 36x74 motor to be faster than his competition. Back to wide open and not good for attracting new racers.

Solutions like weight put a burden on race officials that as Ken said could be solved with just be a list of unapproved motors.
Handout motors again puts a burden on race officials and adds cost, logistics and opens up arguments on reliability. It would be simpler to put a claiming rule in. You win and anyone in the race can buy your motor for say $125. No one will use an expensive motor or risk a cheap one they rewound or had custom made and have to sell it for a predetermined price. Might also encourage manufacturers to build for a price point.
If 3660 was implemented tomorrow the sky wouldn't fall. That's also what a trial period is for. MMEU has done well with 36X62 and just banning the 1415 would keep the peace.
P.S. Darrin is correct and his tunnel record a real achievement. When my son set the IC 45 tunnel record I had more motor in the box. But not enough boat,
Mic

[T.S.Davis]

Super sport mono is growing?..................has rules.

The most popular FE power level in both NAMBA and IMPBA over the past 15 years...........no IMPBA rules.

Got it. Nets us nothing. I guess it makes sense if ya don't think about it......at all.

Yes stick a fork in it. Same reality. Same end point. Clubs writing their own rule sets.

[Greg Schweers]

Here is some information. I have three raider motors and they all Measure over 60 mm when Steve brought these motors out I thought they would be the hot set up. Very disappointing