Namba oval racing class changes ***

[ray schrauwen]

Regarding 1/10th scale, the proposed motor dimensions should work fine in modern, but as stated previously vintage would be interesting. Moving away from scale in vintage defeats the purpose of scale, otherwise its just a sport hydro class. The current motors just aren't built well enough (mostly the power wires, wth??) I run a Leopard 3674 2200kv in my Oberto, and heat isn't a factor (our water temps are generally cooler here). I haven't run anything like a AQ2030 kv size motor, so I don't know what the motors in the 36x61mm range would do at higher than 1500-1700kv like we currently use.



Has anyone looked at outrunner specs for the proposed classes?

We use a smaller kv outrunner in vintage here (Coug90 and myself club) with a comparable outrunner with himax and proboat in classic modern. But as mentioned, we have to revisit the motor spec rules every so often as supply changes. This keeps the speeds at a certain level for the hulls and keeps it competitive.

Not sure what 1/8th scale does.

I really like the Suppo outrunner available here:

http://justgorc.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=56

Just 1.3mm too much diameter. You get a lot for $21.00. They make a 2200kv version and shorter ones too. Hobbyking used to sell them and fightercat.

[dethow]

This is why I keep coming back to my "why wait?" stance. Consider those that actually are willing to travel. I recognize it's a tiny group and a bit self serving on my part to be concerned about it but I could see the list of travelers getting even smaller.

If our local gang opted for this new idea and I field oh let's say 10 limited boats with motors x,y,z to meet the size spec.....................and I then decide to travel too. Pick any race really. I need to have legal stuff per their rules when I get there. For instance if I went to the Vegas NATS I would have to come up with additional motors based on the old spec. Then an extra or two for the inevitable hiccup. Every boat has to be re-calibrated in regards to props, struts, CG. Maybe. Who knows. Months of testing to get that right if I'm already racing based on the new potential size spec. Ugh. Guess which races I wont be traveling to? Any clinging to the old spec.

I "could" just run the old spec as it will still be legal but up here this new idea is going to need me on board. Not trying to be a weeny (it's a gift). That's just the way it is.

If local clubs go with this new idea to see how it pans but we wait to get it in the book there wont be any travelers in 2017. Just a hunch.

Agreed... and what about our MI Cup???
So if we as a club (MMEU) decide to go with new size spec... it is going to be difficult to get travelers that still follow NAMBA spec. They will most likely not be able to compete in the limited classes and won't want to travel just to get beat.
That is unless you are Doby with the perfect boat setups and you're the best driver at the pond...

[Doby]

I think its time to start "teching" the drivers.

One other thing I forgot to mention that's even more important than setup/driving......LUCK.

[dethow]

I guess I am not sold that a $300 motor is going to perform "the same" as a $80 motor. I don't think the performance difference will be large, but it will be there. In the right hands/boat it can skew the perception that a Leopard can keep up with a Lehner. Perception is what I am trying to protect, for the new boaters; i guess. Rules/Classes that help get new racers involved is my motivation.

I get what you are saying here Mike, but there's another side you are missing. There are RTR or ARTR boats being produced and bought by new guys which have motors that would fit the 36x61 size specs. But instead of just buying and running at the club... they are told they need to go buy a different motor, solder new connectors, and run their boat slightly slower then it was stock. We're loosing new racers due to the current limited motor rules.

Here is the best ARTR p-mono on the market (IMO) which comes with an SSS 3660 motor. Can't run it in limited class... That's wrong.
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...-80250-1106-2b

And here is an ARTR p-hydro which really doesn't exist in the market other than a UL-1. But can't run it... gotta change that motor
Popeye is a nice stable boat for LSH. I took 3rd at this years MI Cup with mine. A lot better than a UL-1...
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...80250-1131-yel

And lets not forget that the new V3 Geico and Blackjack no longer fit. They need a new motor as well. MMEU has been allowing the Proboat/Dynamite 2000kv 36x61mm (DYNM3910), but it's not in the rules... Not without the CD giving the discretion if a motor fits within the 5% rule. But do we really know if the new Proboat/Dynamite motors fit within the 5% increase in max constant amp rating? They don't list that spec anywhere I can see. Aquacraft motors are 50a max constant. And the SSS motors are used in 'ARTR' not the 'RTR' boats discussed within the CD discretion area of the rules.

So pretty sure that the only boats that can currently be bought RTR or ARTR and run stock without invoking CD discretion are Aquacrafts. I don't feel it's fair for NAMBA to basically promote a single manufacturer with it's rules.

The rule worked 5 years ago... but it doesn't anymore. Time to move forward and write a new rule that will stand the test of time and move along with ALL manufactures.

[longballlumber]

I get what you are saying here Mike, but there's another side you are missing. There are RTR or ARTR boats being produced and bought by new guys which have motors that would fit the 36x61 size specs. But instead of just buying and running at the club... they are told they need to go buy a different motor, solder new connectors, and run their boat slightly slower then it was stock. We're loosing new racers due to the current limited motor rules.

Here is the best ARTR p-mono on the market (IMO) which comes with an SSS 3660 motor. Can't run it in limited class... That's wrong.
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...-80250-1106-2b

And here is an ARTR p-hydro which really doesn't exist in the market other than a UL-1. But can't run it... gotta change that motor
Popeye is a nice stable boat for LSH. I took 3rd at this years MI Cup with mine. A lot better than a UL-1...
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...80250-1131-yel

And here is an ARTR p-hydro which really doesn't exist in the market other than a UL-1. But can't run it... gotta change that motor
Popeye is a nice stable boat for LSH. I took 3rd at this years MI Cup with mine. A lot better than a UL-1...
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...80250-1131-yel

And lets not forget that the new V3 Geico and Blackjack no longer fit. They need a new motor as well. MMEU has been allowing the Proboat/Dynamite 3660 2000kv, but it's not in the rules... Not without the CD giving the discretion if a motor fits within the 5% rule.

But do we really know if the new Proboat/Dynamite motors fit within the 5% increase in max constant amp rating? They don't list that spec anywhere I can see. Aquacraft motors are 50a max constant current. But than again, the SSS motors are used in 'ARTR' not the 'RTR' boats discussed within the CD discretion area of the rule.

So pretty sure that the only boats that can currently be bought RTR or ARTR and run stock without invoking CD discretion are Aquacrafts. I don't feel it's fair for NAMBA to basically promote a single manufacturer with it's rules.

The rule worked 5 years ago... but it doesn't anymore. Time to move forward and write a new rule that will stand the test of time and move along with ALL manufactures.

Dave, I am not arguing that we don't need a change. I understand we need something. However, having a limited, lite, restricted, spec, however you want to call it class with the ONLY restriction is physical motor size doesn't seem it will provide the same level of performance equalization we are currently experiencing.

Give Terry Davis a $300 top of the line motor against a new guy with a RTR (pick one)? We all know what is going to happen. The key thing I am focusing on is PERCEPTION. Does the new guy think his limited experience is the factor or doe the new guy realize Mr. Davis has a super cool kick a$$ motor/controller combo. What is the FIRST upgrade you see all over this forum??? bigger, faster, more KV motor. Restrictions for a "Limited" class is good.

Don't know, just would like to see cost's controlled, amp draw controlled, and minimize guys burning stuff up. Sometimes I feel like we are working to preserve this to benefit our existing racers rather than working on a rule set that is going to benefit NAMBA membership by INCREASTING the number of racers. MORE racers doesn't seem to be part of this objective. Manufacturers of RTR's are going to do whatever makes them more money. Conforming to the new RTR's is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. Next year, they will have different motors with different sizes. just my 2 pennies.

Later,
Ball

[dethow]

Dave, I am not arguing that we don't need a change. I understand we need something. However, having a limited, lite, restricted, spec, however you want to call it class with the ONLY restriction is physical motor size doesn't seem it will provide the same level of performance equalization we are currently experiencing.

Give Terry Davis a $300 top of the line motor against a new guy with a RTR (pick one)? We all know what is going to happen. The key thing I am focusing on is PERCEPTION. Does the new guy think his limited experience is the factor or doe the new guy realize Mr. Davis has a super cool kick a$$ motor/controller combo. What is the FIRST upgrade you see all over this forum??? bigger, faster, more KV motor. Restrictions for a "Limited" class is good.

Don't know, just would like to see cost's controlled, amp draw controlled, and minimize guys burning stuff up. Sometimes I feel like we are working to preserve this to benefit our existing racers rather than working on a rule set that is going to benefit NAMBA membership by INCREASTING the number of racers. MORE racers doesn't seem to be part of this objective. Manufacturers of RTR's are going to do whatever makes them more money. Conforming to the new RTR's is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. Next year, they will have different motors with different sizes. just my 2 pennies.

Later,
Ball

1st: Same that happens now... with both Terry and Tom (at least in P-Limited-Mono). Their boats are noticeably faster due to much time testing and setting up. So new guy knows they have the same motor and resigns to the fact that they to will have to spend almost every Wednesday and Saturday at the pond to compete with them.

2nd: Perception now is that you can only go buy an Aquacraft boat to come race in NAMBA without having to dive into buying and replacing motors.

3rd: New guy will realize he/she is new and come out and have some fun with their new boat and maybe take a few 2nd and 3rd places due to flip overs. New guy will get his feet wet with his RTR boat and decide later if he/she wants to invest in a new motor... Instead of being forced to either buy an Aquacraft or invest in a new motor before they've turned a single lap.

4th: This size spec is getting away from confirming to the new RTR. RTR will have to confirm to us. Keep their RTR motor to 36x61 max size if you want used in NAMBA limited class. Will they...? Some will and some won't... who cares?

5th: You're speculation that a Terry Davis will go spend $300 on a limited class motor is unjustified. Terry Davis is currently spending $120 on TP motors for P classes and winning races over Neu and Lahner motors. And so is Tom. Terry, Tom and Tyler took the cup this year without using high dollar motors.

I have a lot of respect for you Mike and I concede you have a lot more knowledge and experience then I... but I feel you are off base here. Anything outside of doing size specs is either not able to be specd... or we would be going back to a specific list of motors again which will just have to be changed again in ??? years. And that method would be the ultimate in confirming to RTR.

Just make the size spec... more RTR boats can get involved without having to change motors... and racers can decide later if they want to change motor. You know... when they have pushed the limits of that RTR motor with bigger props. Then they can take what they've learned and take advise given to go get a better quality motor for the replacement. This keeps new racers encouraged... encouraged that they have an option instead of just going out and spending another $80 on the same motor they just burned up trying to catch a Terry Davis or you or Tom or even 16 year old Tyler.

[longballlumber]

"Off base" is a little strong....

Sounds like there is a silver bullet that I am not seeing.

We should change the name of the class "size matters". 😄

[dethow]

"Off base" is a little strong....

Sounds like there is a silver bullet that I am not seeing.

We should change the name of the class "size matters". ��

Sorry, if you felt that was strong. Should I have just said I feel you are wrong?

And guess right now we should call it "brand matters".
Size being proposing is no different than the current motors. Size doesn't change which means its still "limited" compared to open p classes.

As I said... the only perception given to the new guys is that NAMBA only likes Aquacraft RTRs in limited classes and new guys who want to buy a different boat are punished by having to go buy a new motor before they've turned a single lap.

We have a new guy in MMEU named Chris. He told me at our last race that he has a friend who may have joined as well but he refuses to go changing his motor out just to race in the club.

There were 5 Aquacrafts burned up at our last race. Three were mine and all three were in proven setups that haven't changed since mid-last year.
$225 out of my pocket in one day... YEAH! I'd like other options before THIS new guy drops out of NAMBA due to bad motor rules. Someone call me when the rules change. That's about where I'm at.

[longballlumber]

This is exactly why the forums are difficult to exchange two way conversations; tone and dilect is nearly impossible to understand (communicate).

I am not mad or against a motor rule change. I feel like I have stated that previously.

[dethow]

This is exactly why the forums are difficult to exchange two way conversations; tone and dilect is nearly impossible to understand (communicate).

I am not mad or against a motor rule change. I feel like I have stated that previously.

Understood Mike... and I didn't really think you were mad. I'm not mad either, just so you know.
Well, at least not at you. A bit frustrated with these AQ motors thou.

No worries... I'm getting to know you enough that anything you are saying or proposing is your opinion into the best interest of this hobby.
And I didn't mean to make it seem like I was attacking you, if that's what you thought. I just don't agree with your thoughts on perception of a new guy.

[rayzerdesigns]

BTW How much fun would 10th scale be on a TP3630/1950? That would be sick fun.

I will bet my dynamite 1500 would outrun the tp motor.. Just saying

[rayzerdesigns]

One I can see the merits of a size spec.. But I sldo see the merits of a single motor.. The only way you can call it dpec in my eyes are a single motor.. And yes that oprn up to manufacturing.. How long will such said mfgr keep making such said motor.. And on the size spec.. I like the idea.. But again I think that opens the door for people to complain that so or do dpent 300$ on a motor that's why he's winning.. Though we know that isn't the case.. I for one am ok with the current rules but do think change is coming or limited is gonna die off.. Which is sad because these are obviously the biggest classes at a club or national level..I'm not sure I agree 100% with either option.. So now what?? I will say that I am totally against the notion of just having 2 power sizes.. P1 and p2.. Again just my opinion

[Darin Jordan]

I will bet my dynamite 1500 would outrun the tp motor.. Just saying

I think that would depend on who is working the props...

[Darin Jordan]

But again I think that opens the door for people to complain that so or do dpent 300$ on a motor that's why he's winning..

Funny that no one is complaining about my $100.00 motors winning...

Or complaining when they've spent $300.00 on a motor are are NOT winning...

As for "spec"... this isn't spec... it's not now... and it's never been. It's "LIMITED"... You are absolutely right... "SPEC" would require a single motor option. We could go either way I suppose. I think the negatives of a "SPEC" idea far outweigh the positives for LONG TERM use. I think that's part of the reason for the discussion and the idea behind simply limiting physical size. By doing so, you really NEVER have to visit the motor rules again, and it's pretty damned clear on what is/isn't legal. Also, you are absolutely limiting the power available via the motor for the class, so you've very effectively LIMITED the classes performance potential.

As for P1/P2... I agree now. I was really just opening the conversation with that. My real ideal would be P-LTD, P, Q, and Open I don't see a need for any other power levels, and that's MORE than enough classes to include EVERYONE at a "National" event (and, honestly, HOW many of those actually happen anymore??) Anything else can be handled with the local clubs, in efforts to get new people involved.

[T.S.Davis]

I understand the cost concern Mike. I do. I've personally screwed up a size limit in a class before. Remember our N2 Sport club class? I killed that running Lehners I think.

Having raced with and against Mike for years I can tell you that speed doesn't come from his wallet. Mike's boats simply do more with less. Kudos sir. Speed comes from knowledge. Recognizing the little things for what they are. Spending obscene time with a prop. Recognizing what adjustment does what to what. All that time has value. You can't put a number on it. If a guy spends hours sharpening a prop and hits the pond and decides to bend it this way or that way to get a half mph......what's it worth? Is it fair? If a guy doesn't have that skill, knowledge, or simply no time and buys one from Andy Brown for $75..............is that the same? I buy props from Dasboata when I'm pressed for time. Others do it because they don't do props. Fair to the guy that doesn't know he needs to sharpen his prop at all?

My point is....................we're not looking to run IROC here. We're not looking for equality. Only a power limitation. There's only so much power you can scrape from a 36x61 in runner. Sorry guys. No out runners. Less mud in the water. KISS thinking.

The original "limitation" held up for about 7 years. Giver er' take. About 3 years longer than Dave and I thought it would. This new potential motor size limit won't be perfect either but would provide a stepping point between toy boat owners and the psychopaths......that would be me...........but would still be interesting enough to get the vets to do it too.

A little perspective too. Limited encompasses really only 7 classes. Of those, only 4 run regularly. Those 4 are the most popular classes in FE ever. Period.

The goal of changing the "limit" would be:

Retain existing racers
Making it easier for a new racer to join in
limit power

As for actually attracting brand new racers...............nothing has worked better than limited since I've been racing. Buying something that is race-able right out of the box was the key IMO. That said, this is less complex than what we had. Even easier to find a boat that fits right in out of the box. Will that bring new guys? Is it right? I have no idea. What we have now though can't be sustained.

BTW At the club level I am only racing 2 classes of late. Only one of which is limited. Our club doesn't need my participation for the classes to run. Numbers are solid. Frees me up to do more CD'n and such. Yes, that's a work in progress too.