P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[properchopper]

Without drawing any conclusions, I'd like to (remind and) point out that within the context of these discussions that the NAMBA rules governing equipment specifications are ONLY mandatory for National level contests, be they Sprint, 2-Lap, or SAW. Most Club racing either [A] conforms exactly to the rulebook, or [B] has their own looser interpretation (which I know occurs in L.A. Sprint Ovals) and I theenk in Randy's backyard - not that I have any problem with that for now. Here in L.A. we're lucky that some new blood from the IC ranks are getting into Ltd. racing but seem to be unschooled in NAMBA Ltd. restrictions which, for now, aren't being monitored.** I know as of late that some HV packs are showing up at Club Sprint events(whether they're being upcharged or not hasn't been looked at yet) and I confess that some of my spare "spec" motors have been resuscitated with the dreaded motor wire shrink wrap retro-fix to keep them useable. Before putting me in front of the firing squad for such a dastardly crime know that, like a good little boy I actually (after being advised to do so by the NAMBA Police) filed 1/16" off the tips of my Cheetah before the last 2-Lap National Points event.

While it seems that limiting motor choice to one or two units would simplify and make monitoring easier the supply logistics are likely to be inconsistent enough to make this impractical.

P-Ltd as it exists now, be it NAMBA RULE PURE, or Club Interpretation Mod is helping racing at large. And YES I'm all for one-design racing AS WELL

** Also note that a newbie that wants to get into P-Ltd Cat (the MOST popular class fairly universally) and chooses the quite promising PB BJ 29, he will have a motor NOT (unless I'm missing something - happens a lot) that isn't (2000KV) on the NAMBA approved list. What to do ??

[properchopper]

I think there should be one of the P LTD classes that is geared more towards entry. The Entry class is more to get new be's and less skilled a place to grow as always. This may be more important for the growth of clubs and Nationals. A super stock P LTD could have a more rock solid motor and esc but still limit the size of prop and it can be worked.

YES !!!

Here the "Rookie" (gas) Class is for newbies who are just starting and don't have to race with the more experienced guys who will pretty much dominate and perhaps, most likely, discourage the newbie. Once the "Rookie Class" racer wins a certain amount he then transfers into the "regular" classes.

An FE "Entry Class", perhaps bone-stock to keep it easy and simple for the newbie would help grow things. Great Idea

[Darin Jordan]

I think there should be one of the P LTD classes that is geared more towards entry. The Entry class is more to get new be's and less skilled a place to grow as always. This may be more important for the growth of clubs and Nationals. A super stock P LTD could have a more rock solid motor and esc but still limit the size of prop and it can be worked.

YES !!!

Here the "Rookie" (gas) Class is for newbies who are just starting and don't have to race with the more experienced guys who will pretty much dominate and perhaps, most likely, discourage the newbie. Once the "Rookie Class" racer wins a certain amount he then transfers into the "regular" classes.

An FE "Entry Class", perhaps bone-stock to keep it easy and simple for the newbie would help grow things. Great Idea

I'm feeling very "Devil's Advocate" today, so I'll say this...

These sound like PERFECT "CLUB RACING" ideas... No National rules required.

Have you SEEN the number of people actually willing to travel, or attend, a "Nationals" these days? I have SERIOUS doubts that any "Newbie" oriented class is going to be bait to get someone to attend an event that would require a NATIONAL rule change to make the class happen.

NOW... as a local CLUB... Participation... THAT'S YOUR JOB!

Bring them up right, regardless of the classes offered, and they'll get the experience, and either learn to love, or to hate, racing. If they love it, then the Ken Haines' and Terry Davis' of the world are formed, and they'll move up to traveling to events, or even attending a local National, should that be an option.

Sorry to sound a bit down on P-LTD... you KNOW I think it's a good idea to have around, and having a common set of rules is also a VERY good thing. BUT, the hassle, bitterness, in-fighting, and general PITA of trying to maintain this type of class does little positive for the overall unity of our organization.

I'm all for you guys making your "one hull" classes, etc. I've been there, and loved that. I just think this is a function of the local clubs. The aim should be getting people involved, then moving them into already defined NAMBA classes, much like our Nitro friends have done.

[T.S.Davis]

Not sure how to take that? haha You mean super freaks?

Darin, you know I have a cure for what ales us but I'm just not ready for the drama. To say that Kens incident has really affected me doesn't quite cover it. Honestly it was Fede's response more so than Ken's. The way that the racing community responded made me very proud. If anything I'm even more focused on making our hobby better. Some things I was previously annoyed about seem of little relevance anymore.

I talked to a lot of people over the weekend about my idea and guys I thought would be pissed were Johnny on the spot with "I'm in!". We'll see. I'll talk to my gang of misfits about it for next season. Maybe I'll discuss it with a few other good sized clubs to see if they want to give it a go too. Nothing to life altering guys. Just maybe something that keeps us running what we own but also allowing new comers like Promarine in on the fun with a bit less hoop jumping.

[rayzerdesigns]

I don't agree on the one hull idea.. But also don't agree on one prop either.. But I do think to make it completely and totally fair there should be one motor or maybe two.. But same mfgr ..I'm sure there are companies that could keep up with the demand.. I don't think it needs to go any faster than the speeds we have now.. Maybe leopard or tp could keep up with the demand..I do like having a beginner class..something a person can come into out of shelf.. I would agree on cat or mono or even combined.. Anything to get new people to learn about racing.. But on national level I think p limited needs to be a spec motor from one maker.. Only way it's completely fair..again who actually travels to nationals these days..I also think the p limited records should go away until this happens.. Or completely..I myself love the p limited classes because that's where the most competition is.. Yes I love my faster boats and classes.. But I prefer to race with more competition than 3 or 4 other..these are my thoughts.. And I also have no problem writing up a proposal if warranted..and another thing.. I think there should absolutely be tech at a national event..yes they are fun.. And people are gonna cheat.. I got a fact know of some people in scale that are honing and recoating staters in spec motors and changing bearings.. Which by the way is illegal..why people want to cheat is beyond me.. But it's out there.. Again these are my opinions...hope to see you all at the races

[T.S.Davis]

I'm prepared to walk away from the P limited specification entirely. Replace it with something easier to deal with but also not full on open either. Like I said, it will need some proof of concept work.

[Doby]

Terry:

How many "p-limited" boats of various classes did you have this year at the cup?

[T.S.Davis]

I'm not sure. I'll dig into that later. All those boats would not be rendered irrelavent. Not interested in anyone junking their fleets.

[dethow]

I hear you Terry... and that's kinda what my thoughts were a long time ago in this thread. At that time is this discussion I was jumped by many for insinuating that everyone should just "junk their fleet".

I like the talk on just letting the local clubs manage their newbies with various classes they see fit to get people started and gain experience to enter the recognized (faster) classes. But I think there is a happy medium that still lets off the shelf have a place at Namba events but also simplify the issues as far as rules are concerned.

I could see the national rules simply allowing for a P-Spec and a Q-Spec class. Single motor monos and cats run together. This would allow for many off the shelf boats to run in a class. No modifications allowed other than picking your batteries, prop and different tx/rx. Not even changing connectors would be allowed. But any part that a manufacture upgrades, a racer can upgrade to stay competitive with the same boat that is a model year newer. IOW... if Aquacraft puts a better ecs and/or motor in the Lucas Oil... older boats can be upgraded. But a Motley Crew can not change if the off the shelf boat as not changed.

These Spec boats should be purchased from any means which anyone has access to purchase the same if desired. And the boat should be RTR from the manufacturer, not a local hobby shop or any other supplier. IOW... a local hobby shop can't just start putting better motors/speedos in a boat and sell them as spec class boats just because anyone can buy them.

To me, the best thing about this… it MAY start to drive the manufactures to get more competitive. At first there may be a noticeably faster boat and thus will be the choice for the class. As other manufactures see this they may redesign to be more competitive and gain some sales back.
We’d never have to change the rules again. The class would be dictated by what the manufactures are putting out there.

If the manufactures step it up to much and start building open P boats than maybe we talk about a max prop size and pitch for each class as well. Not specific, just a max. Much like max battery sizes.

Two blade props only. P-Spec could have a max of 45mm and 1.4 pitch. Q-Spec could have a max of 50mm and 1.4 pitch. Material, rake, tongue and cupping can vary as long as those two maximums are not exceeded.

[madmikepags]

how bout "handout" motors like we used to do at car racing events? you pay extra for your limited entries and get a motor for each entry. The host club would make extra motors available in case of "boom" each motor is engraved so yo know everyone is running a handout motor.

[Darin Jordan]

One, very simple, very fair, and hassle-free change that would eliminate the need to revisit this topic again.

1) All current P-LTD motors would still be perfectly legal and competitive.
2) Tech'ing would be simply a matter of measuring the Diameter and Length per Figure ##.
3) Sizes shown are maximums. If you want to run 40mm motors, go run regular P. If you want to run a 28XX Leopard or something smaller than the allowable dimensions, have at it.
4) KV, Weight, number of poles, etc... who cares. If you know what you are doing, you'll know the limits. If you don't, you'll find them.
5) Inrunner? Outrunner? Who Cares. Pick your Poison.

When we get to this point, let me know.


P_LITE_MOTOR_RULE.jpg

[T.S.Davis]

Yep, that's what Brian and I talked about. We even talked about not limiting the KV because doing so is a nuisance to tech. Sure it can be done but really the boats dictate the KV for heat racing. You can buy a 2500kv 36 mm motor and throw it in a Pursuit but it will bake or you wont finish.

For those thinking everyone will run out and equip their entire fleet with Neu motors. The 1415 is actually 36.5mm.

The cool thing about this idea (that's all it is at this point) is that everyone's existing fleet stays viable. If you burn up your AQ motor, get another, or go out and buy a $40 Turnigy that fits the dims. New boat manufacturers wouldn't have to get their motors tested and approved by some un-named tester. The motor fits the dims......it's in. If Aquacraft leaves the 2030 behind it doesn't matter. They can do so without any regard for it's impact on racing. Not that they would make a decision based on us. We all know better. If Promarine wants to offer a "ready to race" instead of a "ready to run" they look to the dimensions and they're in. Far be it for me to help PM but you get my point. More boats available is more gooder for the hobby.

I wanted to call it "P Light" or something and just not run P limited anymore. We could run and test it at clubs all over without forcing an immediate fleet flushing. Let the motors upgrade over time. Then clean the book up and get rid of some of the rot we don't run anymore. Get Ecco out of there. Crackerbox can go. You can still run that stuff but get it out of the book so nobody falls for a class that is completely underpopulated.

Stew on it some guys. It's still just another idea. I'd like to see us have an intelligent conversation about it instead of our typical finger pointing and name calling.

On a positive note.....I didn't see any motor melt downs in limited over the weekend. I could have missed some though. I was pretty busy.

[Fluid]

Our "club-spec" class is N-2 Sport hydro, been around for over 6 years. We originally spec'd one legal motor and handed out the props, but of course by now the original motor is no longer available. There was a 'comparable' replacement for awhile, but now there are no new motor options, forcing everyone to buy a new motor to be competitive.

IMO any single motor choice will require a change every few years, making the old motors obsolete. This is probably manageable on the club level, but a nightmare at the National level. Imagine the NAMBA "motor committee" having to decide on a replacement motor every few years!


.

[T.S.Davis]

ahhhh Yeah Jay, can you imagine the bickering over which motor to hand out for Mikies idea?

Then how do you do your testing and such for a handout motor? Someone still has to pick the brand/kv/size. The racers buy some for setup and such. Then there will be all the "These motors suck dude!" Wait! Let's just make Brian pick one. That will go over like a fart in church.

Dimensions.......done.

[dethow]

Dimensions sound easy...
I foresee a big time leap to everyone buying an $80 TP 3630 1950kv.
But you're right... there would also be many $40 to $50 motors from Leopard, Turnigy and others that would be competitive.

Only problem is, that I could also see Neu going down the road of building a motor that fits the rule. But I think the $80 TP will be able to compete with the $200 Neu motor. Yeah... the Neu will have a slight edge. Just as the existing $310 1521 Neu has a slight edge on a $120 TP 4060. Slight edge... Many classes were won at the MI Cup with TP motors.

But yes... Mike P's boats with Neu had a slight edge over the TP powered boats. Or that could just be that Mike's boats are set up better. Wink...Wink...

Bottom line is that a P boat can only go so fast and be in control. A TP can get a P boat to that edge. Bigger boats can handle more and thus those Neu motors show themselves more there.

Just what my Newbie eyes see... I may be wrong.