P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[Doug Smock]

1) How does one clearly test or determine that?
2) How does one easily and accurately tech that?
3) Given a whole mess of motors that all fall under a specific set of dimensions, can the wattage really vary that much?

1 and 2 good questions. Not looking for trouble but, you know.

3. I have no idea. But there are records on the books. You can't stray too far from what you have (approx.900w?)without archiving them can you? Or would they have to be archived anyway when you add motors to the list? I don't know that's why I'm inquiring. Good question no?

Not trying to derail the thread at all, just throwing it out there fellas.

[dethow]

As a newbie in the hobby running up here in Michigan with MMEU... I really don't understand the continued use of the limited motors. I've seen what's been said here and I get the theories that I won't reiterate but I think these things could be accomplished for new people by just plainly having a couple classes for specific off the shelf boats with limits to all aspects of what modifications, props, and batteries that can be used.

I'm not sure how many other clubs run an SV27 class like we do, but that is the best thing for new guys if that standard was set for some other boats that can compete with each other off the shelf. For example... a stock mono class for the Impulse and Revolt. A cat class for the Blackjack, Motley, Lucas and Geico. And now maybe a class for the Spartan and Voracity. Keep them to stock motor and esc that comes in the boat and limit the prop size and battery discharge rate. Make it so these boats won’t burn up and keep them all competitive. Example being is that if a certain cat comes stock with an 1800kv motor while another comes with a 2000kv... allow a larger prop on the 1800kv boat so it can compete with the 2000kv boat while both being within design limits so they don't burn up.

At this year’s Michigan Cup I burnt up a motor in my SV27. No reason for it… it was just it’s time I guess. You know how many people couldn’t believe a motor went out??? Everyone I told. Nobody had ever heard of an SV burning a motor in that class because the rules are set to not push the boat’s limits.

Now that’s fun for new people. Give them a class that they can run race after race without burning motors and testing props to be more competitive.

I know I don’t know or understand all the history into these things but I’m just saying that the limited motor idea itself is old and should be abolished all together. Just provide a couple classes for new people to get involved, which if done like our SV27 class would be more fun. New people getting into this hobby can burn a lot of money finding the right prop and batteries to compete with the guys that have been doing it for years.

And last… the limitations on boat size and battery voltage is enough. You can only make a 34” boat go so fast before you can’t finish a race without flipping over. If someone wants to go put a high kv motor in an oval race boat let em’. Just one more DFN to drive around for those who set up their boat and drive within its size limits.

In a newbie's opinion... that should be the "next thing".

[dethow]

And one more idea for the "new thing"... Get rid of the word "Limited" all together. Call them "P-Mono Iroc", "P-Cat Iroc", "P-Offshore Iroc" and Q-Mono Iroc" for the Spartan and Voracity. The whole word "Limited" is belittling.

I guarantee you'd get more new people involved if they could ACTUALLY just go buy a boat, look up the battery and prop rules and be running the same thing as everyone else on the water with no worry of burning up money every weekend they race because the don't have the time to test and setup like the advanced guys do.

As they race and have fun they will see and learn what the faster unlimited racers are doing. If they choose to spend the money and time they too could then move up to faster boats.

This system of limiting advanced users so that newbies can compete with them is counter productive. The advanced guys will always be faster anyway because of prop, setup and driving knowledge. Meantime you are causing the newbie to burn motors and ecs's (money) in an attempt to compete with the advanced guys. And all this talk of having a new list of motors makes things even more complicated for newbies. So now a new person goes and buys a brand new boat and has to pull the stock motor and start testing to even consider being competitive. You've just turned what should be a fun new hobby into a chore. And if that newbie doesn't take it as a chore to learn fast??? They will not be competitive and thus no fun. No fun equals no show to next race. End result... less and less new people involved.

If some want a limited motor class to showcase their tuning capabilities, that's fine. But it shouldn't be masked with a theory of making it easier for new people to get involved in the hobby. The easiest thing for a new person would be to have spec class boats.

[rayzerdesigns]

darin as to reference motors blowing up at 2015 nats..it wasn't limited to p limited motors..i pretty much talked to everyone in attendance and consensus was everyone was down 2 to 3 prop sizes..water was dense..warm and full of algae..but enough of that...my fear if we go to a size and or weight limit..i just think it will be too much..too many choices..but again just my opinion..i like the idea of keeping it simple..maybe 4 or 5 motor choices period..and I don't think we need a 185 dollar motor..my idea of p limited is to keep it affordable..and easy for the beginners..as well as others..i prefer to run the limited classes because I don't have to have huge batteries..expensive motors..but again that's my opinion..

[Darin Jordan]

Or would they have to be archived anyway when you add motors to the list?

Honestly, Doug, my goal would be to NOT have a list.

Publish the allowed Maximum dimensions, KV, weight, etc. , and put the onus on the racer to select legal equipment. Just like the do for fuel engine classes.

[jaike5]

Now that Darin has pretty well nailed the motor issue. now the other problem is the esc. Go with the stock Aqua craft/proboat they are a great little esc's, and water proof! The motors only became an issue when the 120, 180, 200, 220, 300 amp esc's with massive cap banks that allow that much current to the motor with highly modified props that should never make it on a limited/spec boat.

MMEU has got it right with the SV27 class , follow that model. As stated earlier leave all the rtr out of the box as stock classes with no mod's to the motor/esc.

If you want to go fast, grow some stones and run Q-hydro, open mono, open cat ! Then go wild with all the mod's you want. Leave the rtr's for the new guy's and gals to enjoy and get hooked, and let the hobby flourish

Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

I'm not for stock speedos myself but understand the thinking.


High points is totally a drivers thing. Its based on the average number entries for every racer at the event. We use that to determine the number of classes to include in the high points. So let's say the average is 8. Racers then accumulate points from the 8 most heavily attended classes. Those are always the limited classes. Every time. Then maybe a P mono slipped in if its popular that year.

So if you attend one of these, the guys that run all the less popular classes like T hydro, T mono, Q sport aren't doing so in their quest for high points. You aren't standing around watching them chase high points. They just dig those classes.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I think adding a limit on wattage is tough to tech. Also limiting the rest of the parameters, should also be a limiting factor on wattage.

Please add to the list leopard 3650 1840kv 4y

[Steven Vaccaro]

Now that Darin has pretty well nailed the motor issue. now the other problem is the esc. Go with the stock Aqua craft/proboat they are a great little esc's, and water proof! The motors only became an issue when the 120, 180, 200, 220, 300 amp esc's with massive cap banks that allow that much current to the motor with highly modified props that should never make it on a limited/spec boat.

MMEU has got it right with the SV27 class , follow that model. As stated earlier leave all the rtr out of the box as stock classes with no mod's to the motor/esc.

If you want to go fast, grow some stones and run Q-hydro, open mono, open cat ! Then go wild with all the mod's you want. Leave the rtr's for the new guy's and gals to enjoy and get hooked, and let the hobby flourish

Cheers, Jay.

Jay I see your point. but limiting to aqua and proboat is a no different than the current problem with limiting motors from the same companies. Id say a 120 amps should be more than enough.

[Darin Jordan]

Jay I see your point. but limiting to aqua and proboat is a no different than the current problem with limiting motors from the same companies. Id say a 120 amps should be more than enough.

Well... and that, again, ties you to single-stream suppliers with varying availability and definitely NO stability in the supply. Pro Boat, for example, is now selling there RTRs with 120A, programmable ESCs... I'm not sure that's really "limiting" anything, especially when we are "pretty sure" that these are similar to the 150A Hobbywing ESCs that many of you use.

[Darin Jordan]

Please add to the list leopard 3650 1840kv 4y

Thanks, Steven, I'll add that. I found a few others as well, and Brian has a couple to add also.

People, I would like to challenge you to something: Take the specifications I've listed, and go out and TRY to find motors that fit the spec. Post them here and I'll add them to the list.


You are going to find out that the limits we're talking about make that search PRETTY darned narrow already. The list of suitable motors turns out to be pretty small, unless you go SMALLER on one or more of the dimensions, in which case you are drastically lowering the power of the motor (watts).

Actually doing this exercise reinforces my personal opinion that we do NOT need to have NAMBA maintain a list of motors, and that defining these specs is the way to go. Most, if not all of these "fears" are just not really going to come to fruition, and wouldn't matter much in regards to competitiveness, if they did.

[T.S.Davis]

Darin, my SSS motors were 36.02mm. Pretty close.

Interesting to me is how small the rotor is inside the can. It's like they didn't use the space they had.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Well... and that, again, ties you to single-stream suppliers with varying availability and definitely NO stability in the supply. Pro Boat, for example, is now selling there RTRs with 120A, programmable ESCs... I'm not sure that's really "limiting" anything, especially when we are "pretty sure" that these are similar to the 150A Hobbywing ESCs that many of you use.

Are you saying you agree that only aqua and proboat esc's should be used?

[Darin Jordan]

Are you saying you agree that only aqua and proboat esc's should be used?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to tie the ESC to a manufacturer or supply stream. You just can't count on them being available or consistent.

Don't spec ANYTHING you don't have to... That's my default position.

[dethow]

Guys, I'm just not getting the logic here. It seems like we all want better motors to be included in the limited class so we can run faster. Isn't that already defined by the open (unlimited) classes? You're talking about using motors in the limited class that one could use in the open class and be competitive.

An example of this is that I witnessed a TFL Pursuit with a TP 3630 1950kv motor and a X447/3 prop run with P-Sport Hydros and keep up with them. That Pursuit had to be running between 55 to 60mph.... If a new person gets involved and brings their Revolt with stock motor and esc to the pond that does 45mph they can not compete. And if you expect a newbie to upgrade that revolt to a TP motor... okay fine. But will that Revolt even handle those speeds??? And what about the cats??? How is a Motley, Lucas or Geico going to handle that extra 10mph? A lot of blow overs is all that's going to happen. So now to actually be competitive in the limited classes one will need to buy a better hull. (Cleared up a mis-understanding below. This was actually a TP4060 motor. Sorry)

I just feel that this change to limited class motors is making the boats run at open (unlimited) class speeds and more or less cutting out the off the shelf hulls.

Don't get me wrong here... I'd love to get a better motor in my Pursuit and run faster. But that desire leans more towards wishing MMEU ran more open classes and less limited classes. I have also seen new people come around and I think it gets over whelming for them to think they could actually get involved in this hobby. That's why I think a different direction altogether is warranted.

Provide a few spec boat classes for beginners to run their off the shelf boats and abolish the limited motors altogether. The SV27 class that MMEU runs is a lot of fun and there are several experienced guys that continue to race it. I think you'd see the same reaction for a more defined spec class for larger mono and cats. I for one would go buy something to compete in an other spec class. I enjoy my SV27. I have minimal investment into it and don't have to wrench on it all the time.

My thought is that... using us at MMEU as an example... we currently race the following: MMEU SV27, P-Limited Mono, P-Limited Cat, P-Limited Sport Hydro, P-Limited Offshore, P-Sport Hydro, Q-Sport Hydro and sometimes a couple scale classes. So, that's 8 to 9 classes on a typical Sunday.

We could change that to the following: P-Mono Iroc (Spec), P-Cat Iroc (Spec), P-Offshore Iroc (Spec), P-Mono, P-Cat, P-Offshore, P-Sport Hydro, Q-Sport Hydro and maybe one scale class. Making the same 8 to 9 classes.