P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[RandyatBBY]

I'm going to need someone to SHOW me specifically how a price cap is going to help, or specifically, what the fears are.

It stops the I have to go you and buy the next best thing and making it a $$$ war. If like at the beginning I had a set of motors and props for each class and they lasted 6 years before being wore out and finding the current line of motors will not pull those props ever.

[T.S.Davis]

Oh and.......we're all amateurs here. None of us are getting paid to race.

[T.S.Davis]

It stops the I have to go you and buy the next best thing and making it a $$$ war. .

That's that perception thing. Guys buy stuff thinking they gotta have this, then gotta have that, no gotta have that one, over and over.

[Darin Jordan]

IThe current Idea was started by me at the 2008 NAMBA Nats in Minden CA.

Randy... we ran the P-LTD idea at the 2007 NATs in Monroe.

[Darin Jordan]

That's that perception thing. Guys buy stuff thinking they gotta have this, then gotta have that, no gotta have that one, over and over.

Much the same way that people think they HAVE to have higher KV (AQ2030) to be fast...

The "cost" thing is one of those "what if's" that simply doesn't ever really come to fruition.

[D. Newland]

I'm a little late to the party. Just chewing on the MSRP and Kv aspect of a spec. Neu 1409's will fit the current measurement spec's, but they seem to be around $185. And notice the increase in ave amp draw regarding the different windings/Kv's. There may be better motors, but this one is good enough for illustration purposes.


Neu 1409 $185

..................1.5y............2y
Kv (rpm/V) 2400...........1820
Max Power (W) 1600W 1600W
Max Amp (15sec) 100A.....75A
Max Efficiency 90% 90%
Motor Diameter 36.5mm 36.5mm
Motor Length 55mm 55mm
Motor Weight 210g 210g
Poles (Rotor/Stator) 4/12 4/12


You're easily getting into P-hydro (and P-Sport) territory with a 1409 1.5Y. Maybe not as strong as what many of us run (1415 1Y's), but we're not even breaking a sweat with a 1415 in that class...meaning a smaller version will probably do as good a job...in P.

With that said, I think this illustrates that some sort of Kv cap needs to be there.

MSRP..? Not sure about that one. If a racer loads all of his P-Ltd boats with Neu 1409's...what do the newer guys say in his club that have gone the Chinese route?


And for those taking notes. Here we are, August, 2015 and 4 of the motors are still available, and 1 of them (I'm guessing) 70% of us use. We need to discuss options, yes, but I don't see us being in any sort of emergency. We don't need to be hasty. Shoot, the quickest we can get anything to NAMBA would be the April, 2016 Propwash, which means a proposal has to pass in a district approximately January, 2016.

And, I don't even know if that is such a good idea having a proposal like this so close to a Nat's that has already been announced. I'd feel better that a P-Ltd proposal hit the Sept/Oct 2016 Propwash...but that's just me.

[RaceMechaniX]

I would also be in favor of a maximum weight limit and geometric size maximum. For every motor there is a copper/silicone/magnet ratio that work. A dense Lehner or Neu would need to step down to a smaller diameter or length to meet the mass target compared to a TP/AQ/PB motor. Yes there may be some wizard who comes up with a carbon can, full ceramic bearings and a titanium motor shaft to squeeze every gram of weight. There still is not a big advantage here compared to the magnetic group. We can also put a simple clause in saying the motor can must be aluminum or steel. Bearings and lighter shafts will make a minimal difference.

Motor mass plus basic dimensions are also very easy to tech. Kv may be a little more tricky, but is still very doable although there is a lot of room to fudge the numbers.

TG

[Darin Jordan]

We need to discuss options, yes, but I don't see us being in any sort of emergency.

Dude... if we drag this out too long, none of us will be speaking to the each other.

On a serious note, I agree, but something really should be done. I think the ball was brought back to the court with the comments from the "other" thread regarding motors "burning up" at the 2015 NATs...

With that said, I think this illustrates that some sort of Kv cap needs to be there.

The thought that started this discussion proposed a 2050KV Limit, just to get the conversation started. Still seems like a reasonable limit... 2000-ish KV.


ON a personal note... GLAD to hear from you! Hope all is well!

[Steven Vaccaro]

"Open question for Steve. Really? This is the way it is? Is this a forum for all boaters or is this a NAMBA forum."

Doug Im not going to get into this on this thread. If you would like to start a new thread in the namba area have at it.

[Doby]

Reality check time....

Interesting how lots of people worry about a Lehner (Neu...whatever high dollar motor) providing a competitive edge to the masses who can afford them...

OMG...that driver has a few more KV than me....

Anybody ever consider the reason people lose races is their lack of driving abilities?

Motors are not the be all and end all to winning races.

I'm all for supporting the current approved motors and finding suitable ones to supplement them, but when it comes down to it, boat set up and driving skills are way more important than a brand name and a few KV.

[Darin Jordan]

We can also put a simple clause in saying the motor can must be aluminum or steel.

We could do that, certainly.

I was going to suggest that we could also specify "only neodymium magnets", or something like that, but am not clear at all how one would tech such a thing.

Brushless/Sensorless/Inrunner being specified was another though. (Actually, I think I already covered the "Sensorless part")...

Trying ONLY to list those specs that really matter.

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, I don't know what anyone else has planned but my intent is for a spec to get run at some club capacity over the 2016 season and then propose something only if it's working. How to do that without pissing off club racers I'm not sure yet. I suspect what we'll need to do is have a handful running experimental motors for no points. Maybe one guy in each of our classes tinkering? IDK yet. It's a sacrifice some of us are willing to make.

[Darin Jordan]

I took a moment and starting just doing some targeted searches for motors that would fit within the dimensional and weight specs so people could get a visual of potential motors to choose from. Here is a chart that shows them:

Motor_Comparison_CHART.jpg

These are the manufacture's listed specs, in most cases, so obviously it would be up to the competitor to make sure their motor actually measured to the correct specs.

If you have additional motors that you think would fit, please post links to them or IM me with the information. I'll add them to the chart.

Helps a lot to get a good picture of exactly what the motors are that we are discussing.

NOTE: These are motors that meet the maximum of the rules. Smaller diameter, length, or lighter motors would obviously fit within the spec. Omitting smaller offerings from the list shows you just how worried I am about someone showing up with a 28mmx60mm 2050KV motor...

[Doug Smock]

Dimensions, kv, weight, poles, magnets, etc. No mention of wattage in this thread?



On another note. We have cleaned up this thread.
Any reference to the 2014 Nats was moved to that thread.
A new thread was started with the prop question.

[Darin Jordan]

No mention of wattage in this thread.

1) How does one clearly test or determine that?
2) How does one easily and accurately tech that?
3) Given a whole mess of motors that all fall under a specific set of dimensions, can the wattage really vary that much?