2015 NAMBA FE Proposals

[Doug Smock]

Captain's Log:

05-09-15

Doug Smock seemingly agrees with me...publicly

It must be something in the air. I agreed with Terry Davis either this week or last.

The end is near. lol

PS Sorry I had to delete two of your "Oh my"(s) to make room for a "laugh" and a "hide". lol

[D. Newland]

Both FE proposals passed and will be official once the rulebook is updated.

Please keep in mind that the only thing changed in the voltage proposal was to use ACTUAL voltage rather than NOMINAL voltage for the Power Parameter offerings. NAMBA still only recognizes 3.7 volts/cell nominal as a legal LiPo cell to race.

As mentioned in my OP and in the Propwash, this was not an HV proposal. I'm sure that will come at some point and the best way for it to happen is for clubs to adopt a procedure/guideline, test it, discuss it and see if it's a viable way for NAMBA to go.

[Darin Jordan]

So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??

[T.S.Davis]

So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??

In accordance with the proposal. If it can be rendered useless for the heats it's allowed. So no boats that are intended to self right.

In regards to the bullets outside the hull and risks of cheating etc. I hate when we have to have the "cheating" debate. Guys that will cheat will find a way to do it. Bullets outside the hull could be wired accordingly to give the voltage you want indicated. I could pull a tap wire. I could re-wrap a pack after altering the tap wiring inside the pack too. If I was that hell bent on cheating to win I would find a way. I'm not by the way.

I personally think an external test point should be allowed. Racers discretion. Contest directors can always go check the boat later to make sure there are no shenanigans going on. The risk of being caught fooling around should keep people honest.

On that note, to any reading that would cheat.......is it worth it? It's an age old discussion I know. YOU know you cheated. Plus, what if your caught? SAW guys and oval racers alike have a certain respect for one another. If you're caught cheating................nobody respects you ever again. Might as well quit racing. I think this is that trust that John was alluding to. There's a certain amount of trust and respect for your fellow racer required for this hobby to work. We ain't NASCAR. We can't spend days tech'ing the entries prior to race day. We're just a bunch of fools with toy boats that like to occasionally hang out together.

All that said........we do have a plan for this weeks cup race. Random checks. We'll have someone wondering the pits checking randomly. Fred is still on the fence about what the penalty will be for over voltage but he's leaning towards disqualification from that class entirely. At first he was talking your done for the weekend but I talked him down........usually it's the other way around. haha

Brings that question I posed back into view. "Is it worth it?" You get caught by your peers cheating. Not to me it isn't. I have some HV cells. I've been testing them to make sure that I wont screw up and get over the current legal limit due to heat or what ever. I'm not having an oops that would make my friends question my integrity.

Will this work? Not sure. We'll see.

For the record, I do see a future that includes HV cells. I mentioned this somewhere else. It will be a careful timing thing. Like BL motors were.

[Darin Jordan]

On that note, to any reading that would cheat.......is it worth it? It's an age old discussion I know. YOU know you cheated. Plus, what if your caught? SAW guys and oval racers alike have a certain respect for one another. If you're caught cheating................nobody respects you ever again. Might as well quit racing. I think this is that trust that John was alluding to. There's a certain amount of trust and respect for your fellow racer required for this hobby to work. We ain't NASCAR. We can't spend days tech'ing the entries prior to race day. We're just a bunch of fools with toy boats that like to occasionally hang out together.

We inspect every pack, every time, at the LA SAW event, and it goes very smoothly. Simple to do, and I think the racers appreciate KNOWING there isn't any funny business going on. Pretty hard to catch that stuff AFTER the fact.

We aren't "NASCAR", but I know that you, and MANY others, have HUGE amounts of time and money invested in this stuff. Let's play fair. Trust but verify. Especially when it's so simple to do.

[RaceMechaniX]

Just a suggestion on checking cells at a heat race:

Ask the racers "on deck" to bring their boats down to the "hot pits" without the cowls taped. Randomly check 1,2 or all of the boats time permitting and let them tape up.
I know many guys will have back to back heats and don't have time so this may not work, but perhaps a random spot check.

If a racer is found "over voltage", I would suggest a penalty proportionate to the amount over. Someone who is at 4.25V/cell is not as flagrant as someone charging to 4.35V/cell or higher.
A couple of throttle blips will bring a 4.25V/cell pack down to a legal voltage.

I am looking forward to hearing if something works out for the process.

TG

[T.S.Davis]

We had a hot pit for the nats and it was a bust. Nobody wants to do it. It is a pain in the behind. The most minor hiccup and you have no gear to fix it. If I know who is in the next heat and I've been charged with the responsibility of keeping people honest do I need to have everyone come down to a specific spot? It just seems like that is for the benefit of those observing the "check" more so than actual verification.

I know this, I'm simply not checking all 200 boats at the cup. Everyone racing having the knowledge that their boat may well be the next one I check should be enough of a deterrent to keep them from risking it. I would hope at least. This really means nothing as it's hearsay by definition but I've only heard tell of one instance of over voltage. Then I've only suspected it one other time. Both of those occasions were both on LV cells. One of those was the inspiration for the actual voltage limits as over-volting the LV cells is dangerous. Wasn't really illegal though at the time.

I know it might seem all cloak and dagger shady to have over-volted the LV cells but if you think back to the Nimh days we would go to great lengths to get that extra .01 volts into and then back out of the cells. We would pay someone to test a crate of cells. Then hand select the cells that delivers the highest voltage under load with similar IR's. Then "push" them to get just a tic extra. Just before a heat we crushed them on 8amps just to get them hot. Sometimes they would puke their guts out right on the charger. Sizzling pile of batteries coming through. Was it cheating or just trying to find that extra edge? Rules didn't call it cheating.

Racers looking for an edge and even taking a risk with safety isn't anything new. It's just that these cells are much more violent if they fail. None of us want to see anyone get hurt.

Flash back....................a T boat would run you $380 for a mere 4200 mah. And you had to assemble the danged packs yourself. bahaha Ran em until they dumped which pretty much wrecked the matching. Soooo stupid.

[Darin Jordan]

Terry,

I think you are completely underestimating how much of an advantage voltage is in P-LTD classes.... And these days, you don't have to "push" things to do it... just run the new HV cells...

It's not stupid... it's the difference between "fun-runs", and racing...

And we wonder why Nitro/Gas racers don't take us seriously... WE don't take us seriously....

[Darin Jordan]

By the way... MOST FE Racing is just "for fun"...

I would only really consider it important to carry out strict checking of cells at a National Level event, where Championships and Records were on the line.

[T.S.Davis]

I meant it was stupid what we spent on Nimh just to race. That old tech degraded the minute we soldered the cells together.

Darin, how many 200 plus boat races have you CD'd? After you've done it you can explain to me how "simple it is to do". At a SAW where a single boat goes out every 5 or 10 minutes it is certainly simple. I'm not checking every boat for every heat for every race at the Cup. Period. Not sure those attending will think it's just a fun run because we didn't check every boat every time it goes in the water.

I've also been told by multiple sources that the HV cells don't really have an impact until they are charged to capacity. True? I don't know. I can't test them all. My limited exposure thus far is that my amperage dropped a small percentage when charged to legal voltage. Now that was in comparison to two year old cells so it's likely not a fair assessment. I dropped 8 amps.

I've been to multiple mixed events. The gas and nitro boys don't take themselves that seriously either.

The saddest part of this is that at no point will we be testing cells in an effort to catch cheaters. It will be entirely and totally to appease those that aren't at an event. So they can't say "well sure, but nobody checked the voltage so it's not legit".

SAW is the greatest example this. Who in their right mind is going to risk getting caught over voltage? The volt check isn't for the racer. They know they're legal. It's for those that will later look at the results and attempt to discredit them.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, how many 200 plus boat races have you CD'd? After you've done it you can explain to me how "simple it is to do". At a SAW where a single boat goes out every 5 or 10 minutes it is certainly simple. I'm not checking every boat for every heat for every race at the Cup. Period. Not sure those attending will think it's just a fun run because we didn't check every boat every time it goes in the water.

Terry,

None... and either have you... There are only 6 boats per heat, remember...

And, you seem to have missed the part where my only concern would be for the P-LTD or "spec" classes, where the extra voltage actually matters.

This is sounding like the original Lipo debate... people over-complicating a rather simple task.

I don't give a rip what CDs do, honestly... Tell me the rules and if they make sense, I'll build boats and race.

[T.S.Davis]

Semantics. 200 plus boat events. Somebody has to do all this voltage checking.

It is simple. Random checks. Like a breathalyzer. Not drunk? No worries then.

[T.S.Davis]

By the way... MOST FE Racing is just "for fun"...

So there is really only one race per year that voltage matters? I didn't see any technical inspections of gas, FE or nitro boats at the Spring nationals in Atlanta. I could have missed it. Was that just a fun run? Felt like a race. I think the hosts thought it was a race.

Never been to a gas nats myself. Do they rip apart every entry before the race so that they can verify displacement etc? Front side. Before the heats. I'm totally ignorant here. If you win a class do they impound the boat so the motor can be torn apart? Again, ignorance on my part. I guess if they're taking themselves seriously they have to in order to award a national champion. I suppose I could check with the national gas chair if I really wanted to know.

Now that I think about it.......I've never checked voltage at my clubs races. Guess I should. Random of course. We've never had anyone totally dominate any class so we've never really thought about it.

[RaceMechaniX]

Terry and Fred,

You guys should do what comfortably works and hopefully keeps a level playing field. The classes that stand the most to gain from overcharging are P-Ltd and any offshore class.

Purely from the technical side for which I can confirm with data, increasing the cell voltage from 4.20V/cell to 4.35V/cell gains you almost 500mAh on a 5000mAh pack. So in a 2P setup that is close to 1000mAh total. Non-HV cells can easily be charged this high and see the same performance benefits although their life will significantly decrease.

Have a good race guys.

Tyler

BTW, both gas and nitro have stricter tech inspections that FE do. Stock Zenoah's are routinely torn down after a race for the NAMBA Thunderboat class. Nitro OPC classes are also subject to engine tear downs to ensure to legality. Of course all of these happen after a race day. Gas racing is filled with grey areas and people walking the line on legality.

[rayzerdesigns]

as tyler and darin have stated..the regular cells can be charged to 4.35..and the mah goes up and ir goes down..as people know me..i come from the rc car side but enjoy the boating thing immensely..i have tested charging to the high voltage with the normal cells..if you don't think its an advantage..take this into consideration..i run almost entirely limited classes..in testin only charging to 4.3 per cell my limitd mono has gained almost 2mph..my cat and lsh have seen gains of almost 3mph..thats significant..and terry..it wouldn't be that hard..and im sure you could get volunteers to check pre run voltage..it takes all of a couple seconds..then you can tape up..all you need is one extra table..and chair and a simple volt meter..i totally agree with checking at any big race..especially a national event..or any event where a record could be broken..it really not hard..yes..its a difference from what races I have seen..but I think it needs to be done..just my .02 cents