2015 NAMBA FE Proposals

[detox]

I thought higher prop speed produced more cavitation

[ray schrauwen]

Quote: Darin Jordan: "So that means self-righting boats aren't legal now??"

In accordance with the proposal. If it can be rendered useless for the heats it's allowed. So no boats that are intended to self right.

I notice VERY few posts in this thread of people worried about this rule. By passing this rule you have eliminated one person from D1 racing. The reason Kris K. Made the innovation of a self righting boat that doesn't use a flood chamber was 1. To avoid the use or need for a recovery boat and 2. To prevent the delay that a flood chamber creates in order to self right so as to decrease its potential for a collision with other racers.
Kris was not bending any rule or cheating, he was innovative and was punished for dong so by being lumped in with those using flood chambers.

This year at the MI Cup I submarined my Cheetah in heat 2 of P cat. It came back up and I finished my heat and took second in the class, so what right? My boat took longer by at least 2 times to recover than any of Kris's boats that selfright themselves.

Darin, how many boaters have taken you or others out of a sanctioned event with a boat like Kris's? Not boats with flood chambers....

Dave N. you started this proposal right after last years Nats. How many people did Kris interefere with in order for you to create this proposal? How much mahem did Kris cause? If it wasn't because of this what was the motive behind the proposal?
This is a bees nest I don't mind getting right into.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, how many boaters have taken you or others out of a sanctioned event with a boat like Kris's? Not boats with flood chambers....

Ray, WHY are you asking me this question?? I had absolutely NOTHING to do with this proposal, or any of the others either.

To answer your question, however, there have been SEVERAL in our club who have had very near misses while guys with self-righting boats fiddle-farted around trying to get them upright again.

Would I ban them? NO. Would I call them as dead if they were upside down on the course for more than a certain amount of time... YES. Just like all the rest of us have to be.


I'd have to go review the rule, but I don't think it BANs self-righting boats. I think it eliminates the USE of the self-righting feature. I see no reason for anyone NOT to race if they have one of these, unless they've just decided to get their panties in a bunch. Can't help you there.

[Doby]

Ray:

I talked to Chris before the Mich Cup...his stance was that the design of his boats will cause them to self right and there is no way to make that feature not work (like taping up a flood chamber) so therefore his boats were illegal in his opinion. For those not familiar with his designs, picture a cross between a sperm, torpedo and a chicken egg. The boats hatches are kinda egg shaped to one side to provide positive buoyancy and combined with offset battery mounting positions to act like a keel on a sailboat to provide ballast for self righting ability...they worked well (most of the time) and are brutally quick.

To bad he decided not to go, his non selfrighting boats ran well also ....his T Mono gave Haines a run for his money at the Nats last year.

[T.S.Davis]

Ray, your boat flipped. Was it because you were driving it beyond your butt knowing full well that if you flipped it was no biggy? You came back up upright. That was a fluke. That is not the norm for a Cheetah. How hard would you push with no fear of capsizing?

It's got zero to do with retrieval time.

Has anyone altered their course to miss a boat that was a self righter? yep
Did they come around the next lap in lane 8 to miss it only to find that the boat was gone? yep
Has anyone lost position in so doing? yep
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was running too loose? Don't know. Nobody does.
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was driven too hard through wash? Don't know. Maybe.
Was it self righting because the driver has no fear of being upside down? Who knows. Seems likely though.
Does the ability to "right" give the driver an unfair advantage? Clearly enough thought so.

Dave and number of us have argued this thing to death. The first time I had any conversations about them was 2005 around a camp fire. The first one I saw raced was owned by OSE founder Steve Vacarro. That night a bunch of us blabbed about it. Al Waters thought it was ingenious at the time. "A flood chamber? Really?" The purists said something like "blasphemy". See above for their reasoning. Since then we've had the conversation umpteen times. Opinions still vary. Some have been adamant that righting allows a boat that shouldn't even be able to compete........to actually win.

A prime example, my P mono is ridiculous. Has to be close to 70mph in the straights. I can't finish with it though. The answer is for me to slow down to some sane speed like the boats I'm racing against and actually compete. Or............ should I go the same captain insano speed and compensate by making my boat self right every time I flip?

Dave finally decided to let the membership decide what it wanted. The majority decided no self righters.

[ray schrauwen]

He is fixing up a cottage he bought on a lake larger than Cambridge. He has his own pond now and when the renos are done to the cabin, maybe a real FE Club will come back to life in Ontario. We are so splintered right now its sad. Too many egos and not enough playing with toys. John, are you going to 50 point in August?

[ray schrauwen]

David, for what it's worth, I'm with Jay. I don't really have an opinion on #1. My concern there is more about the drivers of those boats getting fixated on getting their boats up and running again, and not paying attention to the boats still actively racing on the course. Been taken out too many times by that.

Thank you.

This post is why I asked you Darin. We're they boats with float chambers or like Kris's ?

[T.S.Davis]

BTW I lost count of how many cells I checked at the Cup. A bunch. Didn't find anything illegal. Rarely found anything delivering even the 4.2volts. I checked both LV and HV cells. There weren't many HV cells out there. Those poor guys getting re-tapped.

I checked some guys stuff when they weren't even in their pits. They didn't even know I was checking them. Floated in like a vampire bat-checked the cells-out. I even checked some guys chargers during charging. Helps to know how most of the menus work.

I found a fat pack of Zippies that were delivering 4.205 out of one cell. The remainder of that pack was 4.18v or less. Seemed weird at the time.

[T.S.Davis]

John, are you going to 50 point in August?

Think he's hosed. We'll get his address and ransack his house. WOOOHOOOOO Party! Where's my pimp hat?

[Doby]

. John, are you going to 50 point in August?

Was going to, but the Mrs informed me earlier this week that our Aug trip to Switzerland is not on the 16th, as I thought, but on the 6th...so no, I'm out...but I was going to go. I even invited the Michigan Bozos to my place for a BBQ and swim when they were here, but had to cancel that as well.

[Doby]

This is a bees nest I don't mind getting right into.

You in a grumpy mood today Ray....got a stick up your azz or what? Sorry, I forgot, the sticks up your Cheetah!

[ray schrauwen]

Ray, your boat flipped. Was it because you were driving it beyond your butt knowing full well that if you flipped it was no biggy? You came back up upright. That was a fluke. That is not the norm for a Cheetah. How hard would you push with no fear of capsizing?

It's got zero to do with retrieval time.

Has anyone altered their course to miss a boat that was a self righter? yep
Did they come around the next lap in lane 8 to miss it only to find that the boat was gone? yep
Has anyone lost position in so doing? yep
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was running too loose? Don't know. Nobody does.
Was it doing it's self righting routine because it was driven too hard through wash? Don't know. Maybe.
Was it self righting because the driver has no fear of being upsid down? Who knows. Seems likely though.
Does the ability to "right" give the driver an unfair advantage? Clearly enough thought so.

Dave and number of us have argued this thing to death. The first time I had any conversations about them was 2005 around a camp fire. The first one I saw raced was owned by OSE founder Steve Vacarro. That night a bunch of us blabbed about it. Al Waters thought it was ingenious at the time. "A flood chamber? Really?" The purists said something like "blasphemy". See above for their reasoning. Since then we've had the conversation umpteen times. Opinions still vary. Some have been adamant that righting allows a boat that shouldn't even be able to compete........to actually win.

A prime example, my P mono is ridiculous. Has to be close to 70mph in the straights. I can't finish with it though. The answer is for me to slow down to some sane speed like the boats I'm racing against and actually compete. Or............ should I go the same captain insano speed and compensate by making my boat self right every time I flip?

Dave finally decided to let the membership decide what it wanted. The majority decided no self righters.

I push the limit all the time, self righting or not but, I make sure I'm last across the start so I can pick up the crumbs.

I was not privy to any of these debates, was Kris?

I did not say anything about retrieval time but, I said it requires no retrieval at all because of its design as long as no electrical failures. When running alone, no retrieve boat is required. If racing, its one less boat to get.

Many of your points listed above can occur with any boat. A normal boat that dies can sink in a lap, same result as the self righter that continued on. People alter course for dead boats all the time, stuff happens, not Just with a self righting boat.
Points 4,5,6 are null, since you say basically who knows? Point 7, there are many ways to gain advantage like using an outboard motor (exposed motor on bottom of a catamaran) in a cat class like at the Nats. Did anyone mnake a proposal for that innovation???

[ray schrauwen]

You in a grumpy mood today Ray....got a stick up your azz or what? Sorry, I forgot, the sticks up your Cheetah!

Sort of, maybe.

You did not make it look last year and I think you said why.

[Doby]

So we need to limit where motors can be mounted now?? Come on Ray...get out of the sun or at least start wearing a hat....

XOXOX

[Doby]

Remember Ray, you are arguing a point that is in an organization you don't belong too, just like me...We are evil IMPBA slime. If we want to play in the NAMBA's sandbox, we have to bring the right toys to play nicely.

Haven't read the IMPBA rule book in a while, maybe self-righters are still allowed.