More limited motor discussion

[Darin Jordan]

In an effort to keep this thread clean, please send me a PM with this information.

Thanks
Mike

When I'm back at my computer, Mike, I'll send you the table I put together with all the tested motors. I'm sure I have it buried in my files somewhere.

[photohoward1]

From what Brian Buass says these 1415s are robust motors which he has used and won with in full P at 2014 Nationals. Sounds like something to be concerned about, coming from a well respected racer.

Brian could win with any one of the motors. His driving skills and PROP skills are what separate him from the rest.

This is a dumb argument that has been beaten to death. I won P Spec Cat last year in Michigan with a Geico cat and a TP 3630. It wasn't the motor, it was my driving and a bit of luck.

[ray schrauwen]

When I'm back at my computer, Mike, I'll send you the table I put together with all the tested motors. I'm sure I have it buried in my files somewhere.

Again I thank you for all that hard work letting us know what are/were the most efficient motors going.

[T.S.Davis]

Brian will beat you in a turn. Not with a motor. It's like running with Twaits or Newland. You need about 8mph extra to get around the outside of them.

[dethow]

This is going to throw so much fuel on this fire and piss off a couple people, but I think this fixes everything.

Any motor with maximum measurements of 37mm diameter x 62mm long which are currently or have ever been utilized in an off the shelf ‘RTR’ or ‘ARTR’ boat which fit the boat size limits of the class.
i.)The motor should be unmodified except for flat spot on shaft, method of water cooling and method of connection to the esc.
ii.) Any service or repairs necessary should be completed with OEM replacement parts. If OEM parts are unavailable, motor should be replaced.

This will allow all past, current and future offerings from off the shelf boats. If a manufacture like AQ falls of the face of the earth another will take its place. Three years ago we didn’t have Promarine. I think that if this rule was implemented now, the Proboat/Dynamite motor from the UL-19 and the Promarine/SSS motor offered in several of their boats would be the most popular choices. Along with the Dynamite 1500kv of course.

If and when something new comes out, that may become the choice. But these motors out of RTR boats are not currently ridiculously priced at $80+/-, and they will grow with inflation. We can fix in price limits without having to set a number. IOW… ten years from now a motor in a RTR boat may cost $150. The rule will still allow those motors without alteration.

We won’t have TP, Leopard, Raider, Turnigy, Neu, or Lehner in the mix unless someone starts putting them in RTR boats. Don't see anyone putting Neu or Lehner in RTR boats, but if the others are ever added it just makes things better and offers more choice.
We will have a lot more options then we have now and those options will change over time with technology and manufactures changes.

With that... I think I'm done of the subject. I've said my piece and now the powers that be can figure out whats best for the organizations and class. Sorry for throwing a monkey wrench is all this, but if I didn't do this now someone would have done it eventually. ie... stuffed as much copper as possible in a 62mm can.

[longballlumber]

Does anyone have one of these 2000kv Dynamite's they can weigh without the cooling jacket. The published weight seems heavy for only 56mm long

https://www.horizonhobby.com/3650-6-pole-marine-motor-2000kv-dynm3831

Thanks
Mike

[T.S.Davis]

I have one in the box at the house.

[T.S.Davis]

ii.) Any service or repairs necessary should be completed with OEM replacement parts. If OEM parts are unavailable, motor should be replaced.[/B]

Prove it how? Does a tech look at the bearings and then call Proboat on race day to find out if the bearing are still available?

Simpler is better.

[TRUCKPULL]

Motors like the TP3630-1950 were all slightly over the 60mm.

Darin
I have a new never used TP3630-1950 sitting here that I just measured - 57.7mm long

Larry

[dethow]

Prove it how? Does a tech look at the bearings and then call Proboat on race day to find out if the bearing are still available?

Simpler is better.

Same honor system we currently operate under.
May someone cheat? Yes.
Just like people may currently be cheating.
Are those people dominating currently because of bearings? Probably not.

Will we know if someone cheats, no. But we can deter using non OEM parts by having the verbiage in the rules.

Simple is not better. Simple is going to allow motors in that you will either own or chase and no RTR boat with stock motor will be able to compete.
Again... I don't know what these 1415 motors are going to do. I'm basing that statement on Brian Buaas's opinion of the motors.

[dethow]

Darin
I have a new never used TP3630-1950 sitting here that I just measured - 57.7mm long

Larry

Yes, same here Larry.
TP has made these motors in many varying lengths.

[dethow]

Does anyone have one of these 2000kv Dynamite's they can weigh without the cooling jacket. The published weight seems heavy for only 56mm long

https://www.horizonhobby.com/3650-6-pole-marine-motor-2000kv-dynm3831

Thanks
Mike

The one I have weighs 252 grams without the jacket but with the stock 5.5 connectors still on.
Mine is 56.2mm long.

And so everyone knows.. I've already given Mike all the data I put into a spread sheet on many motors. I hadn't weighed and measured my Dynamite motor until now.

[T.S.Davis]

A Promarine Phantom was lapping my one of a kind, wire drive, carbon fiber, Pursuit all season. I ran 4 different motors I think. Chris still beat my by over 1000 points. It was not close.

Ty finished 1450 points ahead of the Neu powered LSH with a hodge podge of motors. Once we stopped experimenting and stuck with one cheep motor he was tough to catch.

I think yer getting ahead of yourself Dave. Just a tic. Not get'n on ya. Honest. Put the 1415 on the water and race it. See where we're at. If something needs to happen it will be clear. It's premature to assume it will dominate. We thought the same thing with the 1412's Kevin was running. Didn't happen. Respectable and long lasting? Yep. Fer sure. Todd put a Lehner in his 10th scale. Didn't win either.

BTW There aren't many guys that are going to buy an RTR and be very competitive. Not because the boat can't keep up necessarily. Because there's a learning curve. The point is to get them out there. Chris did well with his RTR but that guy really can drive.

[fweasel]

Can I make an observation as a complete organized racing novice: This has got to suck the life out of this hobby for so many.

I would love to be involved in racing, but it's not readily available near me. If I were involved, this stuff, while probably unavoidable, just throws a big wet blanket on my enthusiasm level, and I would imagine others. I feel for those trying to make headway and the countless opposition they must face for every small move, good or bad. Good effing luck boys.

[Darin Jordan]

Reliving this conversation again is sucking my desire to race this class right out of me. It's part if why I said screw it and just took last season off. Is it ever going to be resolved?

With David's suggestion, we're right back at what we were trying to avoid: untechable, convaluted rules with lots of gray area and are impossible to ever truly enforce.

There is no need for all that. The right physical size restriction and this discussion never takes place again.

If 37mm x 62mm isn't it, then let's figure out what is, move forward, and go racing.

I still contend that, based on previous data, 36.3mm x 61.2mm is in the ballpark. If 61mm or 60.5 or ??? Is more reasonable ( meaning there are actually motors available that equate in performance and fit that size ), then good, let's go with that.

It should be noted that, even given their slightly longer lengths, the 4-Pole motors still didn't outperform the P-LTD 6-pole motors during bench tests. They got warmer under the same loads.