More limited motor discussion

[Doug Smock]

Mike is onto something David.
IMPBA-Protested equipment is allowed to run until such time it can be evaluated. The procedure can be found in section K Technical standards. I suggest everyone read it. You reallydon't want to get caught with a boat that doesn't fit the rules.

Bear with me a second. The guys running LSG (Large Scale Gas) classes with the "stock"/ Super Sport engines (Thunderboat, Crackerbox, Super Sport mono) know that if they set a record, are one of the top three at a nationals, or are protested, their engines will be torn down, inspected, and handed back to them in a box or bag. That's just the nature of the beast if you choose to run those classes! The Thunderboat and Super Sport classes are thriving. LSG 27 Crackerbox went to Super Sport engine rules and it saved the class. Just saying they voted in a rule change with a tear down tech procedure and saved the class.

Pulling a motor, possibly removing the jacket and or connectors is no big deal compared to the above. If you don't want to subject yourself to that, don't.
Tearing down the top three? Not really necessary IMO, but a host club could certainly do that if they wanted to.

[Doby]

Well Terry, you had better be prepared to tear down the top three finishers in any of the classes I'm entered in..because I get beat its definitely not because:

1) They drive better than me
2) They tweak the props better than me
3) They set up their boats better than me
4) They spend more of their free time trying things out

Nope ..its gotta be cheating.....

[Doug Smock]

9 years of the class with rules that could be circumvented and nobody at a race though they were being cheated. Hmmmmmmm. Collective pat on the back fellas.
The frequency of guys tearing down setups I think would be nil even if we did have a weight.

I agree.

And BTW, the "Amp Daddy" rewinds were legal motors. They met the "spec".

The Offshore boat with no number or sponsors was not!!

[Darin Jordan]

Well, crap... now I have to care... ;-)

20180215_171125.jpg

[Doug Smock]

Welcome to the IMPBA Darin!
@#$%#&@^^#%$%%

Lynne is quick isn't she?

[TheShaughnessy]

I thought spec motors burnt up all the time anyways so the motor should be installed in such a way that allows quick swaps. I think Tony can do a motor swap in 5 minutes, about the time it takes to run one gas heat. I'm sure all of us are capable of some addition/subtraction. Rather than removing the connectors why not just have 3 of the connectors in question on hand so they can be weighed , same can be said about the water jacket, wires, collet, etc. why would it all have to be removed? Motor with all the "accessories" weighs in at 270 g, water jacket etc. weigh in at 50 g ( these numbers are made up). Actual weight of motor = 220 g.

[Doug Smock]

No Michael if motors are burning up all the time there is something wrong with the set up or the mentality.

[Darin Jordan]

Exactly, Doug. Only motors I've ever burned were ones where I knew that risk existed!

[TheShaughnessy]

I forgot sarcasm doesn't transfer to the written word very well and it wasn't really the main point of my post. My point was that you don't need to strip the motor entirely to get a weight for it. I have 5 spec motors I bought in anticipation of burning motors (generation change of AQ2030 ring a bell?) I'm not burning motors, they are all still in my box.


Engine vs Motor is purely semantics , the definitions are nearly identical. That being the case, rules for protests can be found in section 16 on page 4 of the NAMBA rule book.(wrong organization, I know) To sum it up, even if protested you would be allowed to continue racing all 4 heats. However, the results would be pending inspection. As was stated earlier.

[Ken Haines]

Mike, yer making a good case for it. Adding to that, how is that any different than tearing down a a gas motor? Nobody is doing that until someone stakes a claim. Isn't that the case? Showing my ignorance again.

I think I agree.....I really like Mike Ball's idea here !
By simply adding some well researched weight numbers we can get to where we all want to be.
Darin's dimensions with the weight addition safe guarding the overstuffed cans like a Neu 1415 or others.
I will be racing Neu motors, but agree that the 1415 could ruin the class. I think Brian's data confirmed that fear.
I too realize that this thread has put a damper on the rule change, but better deal with now than after it is an actual rule.

I truely believe this now will turn out for the best. Just a simple addition of weight criteria and what will probably be
very few if any tear downs since everyone will know by the weights what will pass a tech or not. Certainly the
tear down would come only after an events final heat. I want to commend Mike for the idea and Dave for sticking his neck out here.
This to me is how we should solve our problems. Thanks for Brian Stepping in with the data to go along with the great lengths of
time and diligence that Darin put in to getting this thing 99.9% perfect. No one can think of everything and with what sounds
like a good weight number coming after Mike's research this should all work out very soon. Also want to thank Terry for
his guidance and thoughts on this.....realizing also that the timing of this must give Tom & Terry a huge headache worrying about
how this could effect their Nat's.

I have cancelled my 1415 orders and will be changing them to 1412's today.
As soon as we get the weight numbers we will be incorporating that into our District 3 FE Rules.
Congrats to all and good work here

[HTVboats]

Adding weight to the mix in my opinion will ruin this class. Size is very easy and can pretty much be done visually, and officially with a caliper. Now add a scale and the officials who have to enforce this rule after running an event and what club wants to add this headache to their race. Pull your motor and desolder your connectors. Not! Do not make rules your not prepared to enforce at any level.
I can tell you I have no interest in promoting this class after this discussion.
Mic

[dethow]

Great post, Ken. Thank you.

I agree you with regarding the pressure on Terry, Tom and the MMEU club regarding this issue. And with that I want it to be known that I have no issue if as a club we choose to blacklist these cut down 1415 motors out of our 2018 club races and the upcoming Nats event.

I don’t want a dark cloud hanging over our club or this event. I think it’s premature to enact the additional weight rule thing and start trying to figure out what the weight should be and how protests are conducted. I think at this point, the simple thing to do is just simply say the cut down 1415s will not be allowed.

I hope Terry, Tom and I can have a brief conversation on this prior to our upcoming MMEU meeting.

Thanks to everyone for the conversation and from here I’m out on this issue. I’ll now be awaiting Mike Ball to collect his data and guide us (IMPBA) forward. Congratulations to Mike on being the new FE Director for IMPBA. I hope that was okay for that to be put out there, but oh well.

[dethow]

Adding weight to the mix in my opinion will ruin this class. Size is very easy and can pretty much be done visually, and officially with a caliper. Now add a scale and the officials who have to enforce this rule after running an event and what club wants to add this headache to their race. Pull your motor and desolder your connectors. Not!
I can tell you I have no interest in promoting this class after this discussion.
Mic

I'm sorry but this is truly the last thing I'll say on this.

I don't think posts like this are productive. No...! the addition of weight is not ideal but then how do we get motors like the 1415 and similars out of the class if we only use dimensions?

I understand not liking the weight... then bring an idea if you have one.
Because if nothing is done, the 1415 and similars will ruin this class.

Like Terry said... I doubt there will be many if ANY protests.
And even if made they will be much less invasive then what gas/nitro guys deal with.

BTW... probably 95% of the motors which will be used are going to fit within the max weight with connectors still on. Many will fit with connectors and collet still on. The TP3630 weighs 263g bare. Most motors currently being used/considered for the class are in the 240g to 255g range. I predict the weight limit will probably be in the area of 270g. The cut down 1415s weigh 292g. So they will be out and any other similar custom motors will be knocked out. Custom motors will be allowed by the rules, but you will need to be under the max weight limit and yes, if you choose to go custom you MAY undergo some protests. If you're using a known manufacture motor, you'll never see a protest. I can say that with almost certainty.

[HTVboats]

How do you keep the 1415 out. Don't allow altered motors. Even the motor list that rarely gets updated works. Make a decision on length 60, 61.3, 62 and go with it. I have raced in the mid west and southeast for close to 40 years and run races over the years. If you think for a minute there won't be protests your naïve. Again if you want to see arguments and hard feelings add a format that encourages protests. The intent of spec was to keep things simple and inexpensive to attract new racers.
Mic

[dethow]

How do you keep the 1415 out. Don't allow altered motors.

Alteration from what? After Manufacture? My 1415 motors are NOT modified after manufactured. Now what?
And now start defining manufacture. Is someone in their basement a manufacture? If a certain number of motors had to be produced, how do we get those numbers? These thoughts have been discussed already. Doesn't work. More complicated, harder to define and more interpretations.

Don't allow altered motors? So now we'll see protests over bearings, re-winds and many... many other things that can be "altered" on a stock manufactured motor.

Sorry.. nice try but that issue has been beat down. Doesn't work to just say no alteration. The protests would be even worse and more complicated then a simple weight.