(Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

[ray schrauwen]

Agreed... so why even add the "As Manufactured"?

Lets move beyond the custom wind question/issue.

As for cutting down a Neu 1412 or even a 1415 to fit the size rule. Anyone can email/call Lisa at Neutronics have this motor made. By "this motor" I mean a 1415 motor at 62mm length. It is manufactured by a known supplier and can be purchased by anyone who wants to place the order. So that also fits within the "As Manufactured", does it not? Will someone be called a cheater for using a motor that anyone can order/buy? Does one have to bring a receipt for their motors so they can prove it was purchased from a manufacture in its current form?

Guess I'm trying to make the point that there is nothing someone can/will do to a motor that can't be done by the manufacture. So why even add the "As Manufactured"? It just throws a scoop of dirt in a clean easy to spec rule which makes a lot of mud for people to throw around and debate for years to come.

Or maybe we add in that it has to be "As Manufactured" and able to be purchased from your local and/or national hobby shop/supplier. But then what stops one from asking their local hobby shop buddy to call Neu and get a supply of these 1415 motors? Or what stops a national/world wide dealer from having a manufacture produce something that maybe local hobby shops can't get? Like the Neu/OSE Raider motors?
The questions and debate will go on and on....

Just for giggles I could bug a Gool RC 36mm x 70mm 2280kv motor and cut it down. Won't have the longevity of a neu but it will run like the clappers for $30.00.

I'm not planning on building any Frankenmotors but I've been inspired!

[ray schrauwen]

Here's the actual wording as proposed. Let me know what you guys think. Still think Note 2 should be revised because honestly I don't care. I can't prove either of them on race day.

Note 2:
Motor to be an in-runner to a maximum of 37.6mm x
62mm, any kv, any speed controller, readily
available from manufacturers (no hand winds, no
can mods).

The way I see it above is perfect! Thanks!

[dethow]

Dave, no worries man. I feel your integrity is intact. I totallyyyyy! get your concern with that. An assault on mine over lithium polymere made me resign as national chairman. I would tell you straight up if I thought you were skirting the line. I don't think you are.

Thank you Terry... And I'm actually glad its just out there now. So now no one is surprised or butt hurt at nats.

I honestly don't know if these 1415s with be an advantage. I'll tell you guys coming to nats that you probably shouldn't worry about it in my hands. I still consider myself a somewhat newbie that lacks real driving skills. And I skipped most of last season due to my precious baby girl who will be 2 years old in about a month. Between the time she took as an infant combined with being self employed out of a home office... I had no time to build and/or race.

[dethow]

Note 2:
Motor to be an in-runner to a maximum of 37mm x
62mm, any kv, any speed controller, readily
available from manufacturers (no hand winds, no
can mods).

I think "readily available from manufacturers" is where it gets grey. Who interprets that? Does that mean it has to be on their shelves and ready to ship? Or does it mean they are willing to make it and anyone can order?. The difference there can mean months of time. One may say its not readily available if it takes months to get.

[T.S.Davis]

How do I prove as a CD on race day that a motor is "readily available"? Has to be on a website?

[Doug Smock]

No it's not easy Terry, it sucks as a matter of fact! That was my point. But that's what you've got in dealing with such classes. Go with dimensions. I'll have motors that fit the rule. We can address this again next season. Nope, not me..... Work it out fellas, I'll see you at the pond.

[HTVboats]

Right how many people are capable of identifying the all the motors in the current approved list? That inspection would be a nightmare. Simplifying to 37X62 makes an after race inspection feasible without generally removing motors and water jackets, by an individual who can read a micrometer. Inspections are rare as it is, so make it easy for clubs to enforce if they choose.
We have had here in Florida discussions about what if! One guy is going to buy a Lehner and there goes the neighborhood. So be it. If that 2% of people need to shoot fish in a barrel to feel like a winner, that's ok. And probably not going to happen. Put a claiming rule of say $125 in and all ringers are out. If you win the race anyone there can buy your motor for $125 or a nominal fee that could change with inflation. Keeps the class cost reasonable and custom motors not so much. I hate to see the what if's ruin a very good class of power for new and experience racers to compete.
The intent here should be a "sport" non record class that is in the rule book (IMPBA). When prospecting new people and you say well your motor is legal here but maybe not be in another district. That says he's spending money for a local class that isn't participating in national rules of an organization your making him join. Basic structure does not need to be complicated.
Mic

[dethow]

There is still an issue that I think needs to be thought about.

What happens if my 1415 motors or any other future developed motors demonstrate to be dominant?
If you do go ahead and remove ‘unmodified from the factory’ or ‘as manufactured’ or ‘readily available from manufacturers’… there is no grey area that can be further explained or defined to knock a motor out.

So now all you can do is make an excluded motor list. But is that a good idea? Won’t that just stunt technology and growth by saying anything that which proves to beat the majority will be black listed? Does that promote capitalism and entrepreneurship? Or even competitiveness amongst manufactures.

What if Proboat makes a new motor that stuffs the 62mm can and it dominates? Do we black list it and tell guys to pull that otherwise legal motor out of their brand new off the shelf boat and put something slower in there?

Food for thought…

[dethow]

Put a claiming rule of say $125 in and all ringers are out. If you win the race anyone there can buy your motor for $125 or a nominal fee that could change with inflation. Keeps the class cost reasonable and custom motors not so much.
Mic

Not a bad idea... I'd personally be screwed out of a lot of money I've spent on both 1412 and 1415 motors.

I think this thought came up in the past and there was some negativity about that I can't remember right now.

It is what it is... and this could eliminate people getting butt hurt over high priced motors and/or people putting so much time into winding their own or creating other Frankensteins.

Given the position I'm in I should be advocating against this... but I'll always be about whats best for the hobby, not my pocket.
Besides I could still race my Neu motors... I'd just have to sell them at a loss based on a claiming rule.

But if considered... please make sure the claiming rule is for a bare motor. No cooler, no collet, no connectors. Because I will burn off my 6.5mm Castle connectors if someone wants to buy my $225+ motor for $125.

[ray schrauwen]

Not a bad idea... I'd personally be screwed out of a lot of money I've spent on both 1412 and 1415 motors.

I think this thought came up in the past and there was some negativity about that I can't remember right now.

It is what it is... and this could eliminate people getting butt hurt over high priced motors and/or people putting so much time into winding their own or creating other Frankensteins.

Given the position I'm in I should be advocating against this... but I'll always be about whats best for the hobby, not my pocket.
Besides I could still race my Neu motors... I'd just have to sell them at a loss based on a claiming rule.

But if considered... please make sure the claiming rule is for a bare motor. No cooler, no collet, no connectors. Because I will burn off my 6.5mm Castle connectors if someone wants to buy my $225+ motor for $125.

I've seen you buy and sell numerous motors for spec class racing. Those tenshock motors weren't cheap. Are you ableto recover those losses by reselling them? Do you still have them?

You can run those neu motors in open classes. Some do run them and successfully to boot.

The new PB 2000kv motor comes with 5.5mm bullets.

[T.S.Davis]

We don't need a list of unacceptable motors.

Guys, here's a list of what we ran off the top of my head this summer. This is without digging for data. Memory.
AQ2030, AQ1800, TP1750, TP1950, TP2070, TP2220, Raider 1700, Raider 2030, SSS 2030, PB 2000, PB 1500, Neu 1412 (custom winds, 2 versions), and we even had a Lehner 1700 run in 10thscale. Think that one had a fan on it. Didn't win. At the cup and in Atlanta we had some hand wound motors and we also had at least one machined can. The hand wound was competitive but nothing crazy. About the same as the others. The mod can failed I believe. Expensive experiment.

The best performer overall was........Proboat. So $80 motors beat $300 custom wind Neu motors. Is it driving? Who knows. Could be part of it but the notion that you can just purchase wins doesn't really fit IMO.

I don't think we need a spending cap either. Suppose I stumble across a deal on something? An inventory clearance. Steve does that with motors all the time if it's been on the shelf too long. Or what if I order something on line and don't even realize I'm getting a deal on it. Then on race day..........."hey, those retail for $135, DQ'd"

Spending dough on motors hasn't proven fruitful to date.

If if's n' buts were fruits and nuts.....................
We could what if this to death and likely already have.

Can size, voltage, length limit on the boats..........done. Idiot proof.

[Steven Vaccaro]

I dont see this as bickering or fighting. there are lots of good questions being asked. I aslo have one.

Let me ask this. If I was to have a particular manufacturer make a motor to fit these specs that absolutely kicked ass because it was like stuffing a 1415 into a 1413 sized case, whos fault is that? Id say no ones. The other manufacturers would have to step up if they wanted to sell motors to fit this class. This isnt cheating. Its working within the rules of the class.

Maybe adding a weight rule to the dimensional rule would help?

[T.S.Davis]

If you think about it Steve. We're sort of doing the same thing with our 34" length limit.

The theory was always that you could only push a 34" boat so fast before flight took place. Go faster.......................don't finish.

So what happened? The hulls evolved to fit the class. Not just one either. The Black Pearl. All the of the ML boats. The Huff boats. Designed to fit the class. Designed to stay in the water at higher speeds. Designed to move that edge we're all chasing. I'm having a one off mono engineered for me. It will be the only one on planet earth. Am I cheating or building something smarter inside the rule set?

[Steven Vaccaro]

If you think about it Steve. We're sort of doing the same thing with our 34" length limit.

The theory was always that you could only push a 34" boat so fast before flight took place. Go faster.......................don't finish.

So what happened? The hulls evolved to fit the class. Not just one either. The Black Pearl. All the of the ML boats. The Huff boats. Designed to fit the class. Designed to stay in the water at higher speeds. Designed to move that edge we're all chasing.
[/QUOTE]

I agree, its a good thing.

I'm having a one off mono engineered for me. It will be the only one on planet earth. Am I cheating or building something smarter inside the rule set?

Thats what I mean. The rules are written and people should do what they need to fit in those rules and still stay legal. In the end, when you go to a race, Its not like going to a car race where there are 100 plus racers. you probably know at least half the guys rather well. If someone needs to cheat to beat their friends to win, they are not friends and its an empty win.

[dethow]

I don't think we need a spending cap either. Suppose I stumble across a deal on something? An inventory clearance. Steve does that with motors all the time if it's been on the shelf too long. Or what if I order something on line and don't even realize I'm getting a deal on it. Then on race day..........."hey, those retail for $135, DQ'd"

After having time to think about it, I came up with some issues regarding a spending cap and/or a claiming rule.

What Terry said covers the simple spending cap and its potential problems.

The claiming rule would create a cancer to spread.
Let’s say I put my 1415s into service. I win and someone claims from me for $125. Now that happens several times because I have more than one of these. Before you know it you’ve got a handful of guys who have one of these motors and they keep changing hands because each time someone wins it becomes a spectacle of people attempting to be the first to make a claim.
And besides MY 1415s this could happen otherwise by someone finding a deal or building a Frankenstein to win at a nats event even thou they know it will be claimed afterwards.
Just doesn’t work…

Can size, voltage, length limit on the boats..........done. Idiot proof.