(Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

[T.S.Davis]

Which races? I've been to a few. I've never seen a motor checked. Aquacraft motors aren't having their windings, rotors, bearings, checked. Voltage yes. Motors no.

That was part of the problem with the old rules. Couldn't be tech'd in a practical manor. Impound the boats, dissemble maybe 12 in a day, start measuring them against the manufacturers specifications to ensure that they are in fact out of the box. I promise you this has never been done.

This is the problem with anything other than a can dimension too. If we say "unmodified" how can we be sure that the stator, windings, bearings, rotor, shaft, wire cover, endbell, bearing lubrication are "as manufactured". Collect them and check against their respective web site? Some came with connectors. UN-modified implies that you can't change those either. Heck, some came with motor screws. This is what Mike was getting at. As manufactured was a disaster when it was part of the NAMBA rule and it will be the same now.

Should have left it out. Kicking myself.

ugh, remember when this was a thread about the nats?

[Doug Smock]

Wow, this deep discussion certainly can make a newcomer just stay on the beach!

Absolutely, and this particular discussion has been going on for nearly 10 years!

Still very good questions with few very good answers.

[Doug Smock]

ugh, remember when this was a thread about the nats?

You're welcome sir.

Keep it on the surface fellas. We are all passionate about these "Toy Boats".

[rayzerdesigns]

Ok here’s my 2 cents.. I was ok with current rules.. I’m ok with the new rules.. yes it opened up room for a lot of interpreting.. here’s how I see this going.. I think currently p is way to easy to over power the hull size.. and with the new rules the gap between limited and p is very minimal..yes I said it. Yes I will be more than happy to prove it.. I’ve tested 2 cheap hobby king motors.. both under 60$.. that fit within the new size rule.. both are faster by a big margin than my current limited setups.. which if anyone knows mine aren’t slow..I haven’t even had time to test a bunch of props yet.. but in mono and cat I have picked up almost 5mph.. so my thought is that limited will basically end p.. I mean truthfully look at numbers at races.. how many p entries do you get compared to limited numbers? I agree that the rule needed to change even though I’m totally happy with the rules the way they were.. we needed to be able to let a guy go into a Hobby shop and buy a boat and be able to race it off the shelf.. period.. the end.. we need these new people in the Hobby..otherwise it goes away.. this was the most viable way for it to happen..yes of course people are going to push the limits.. but that is nothing new..I actually like tweaking things to get the most out of them.. . Whether or not impba approves the size rule.. namba is..all we heard was everyone complain about the aq motors burning up.. but they didn’t look at the other motors on the list.. never gonna please everyone.. but we needed to do this to allow it easier to let new guys girls to get into it easier.. if not then who knows where it’s going..I will be testing a lot this year.. be ready!!!

[Doug Smock]

"I think currently p is way to easy to over power the hull size.. and with the new rules the gap between limited and p is very minimal..yes I said it".

I think you're probably right. So this should be the last discussion on these classes right? Congratulations fellas, mission accomplished!

In my best estimation RTR is the best way to get people out of the hobby shop and on the drivers stand. Plug and play, with very few rules. That's how this started. But no, racers turned it into 9 years of threads just like this one.

[dethow]

..and with the new rules the gap between limited and p is very minimal..yes I said it.

Well I can tell you from my experience last season... I have a Pursuit with a Neu 1412 which resulted in one of the top 3 to 4 spec mono boats in terms of speed. I entered that boat in open P mono just to turn some laps and I was lapped by first and second place. So no, I don't think the gap between spec p and open p is very minimal. If you are seeing that then either your spec Ps are VERY fast or your open Ps are VERY slow. Or maybe both... IDK.
Also didn't see spec sport hydros having a chance in holding their own against open p sport hydros. Not a chance... night and day difference in speed.

BTW the other spec monos which I considered faster then mine had TP, Proboat and SSS motors.

[rayzerdesigns]

Well if u look at the record for limited mono which I broke by 10 seconds this year in a full 6 boat heat and all 6 finished and in Vegas water... yes my spec boats are prob the fastest in the country.. u can ask around.. and first motor and prop I threw on picked up almost 5 mph..so yes the speeds are very close.. and I don’t think anyone would call any of my boats slow..but again.. let’s hope that this new rule will be accepted by impba as an official class.. and will help draw new boaters

[dethow]

As manufactured was a disaster when it was part of the NAMBA rule and it will be the same now.

Should have left it out. Kicking myself.

Terry,
Is this "As Manufactured" thing just a thing mentioned in the rules for the nats event or is this part of a proposal for IMPBA 'Spec' class?

This needs to be removed if beyond just the nats event. My issue is... what's the definition of "Manufactured".
If it comes from a manufacture does that make it legal no matter what modifications you requested from the manufacture? In which case a Neu 1415 put in a 62mm can is legal.
Or does it not only have to come from a manufacture but also meet the manufacture's standard spec drawing? In which case a Neu 1415 put in a 62mm can is not legal.

But what if a large retailer has Neu build a custom motor that is basically a 1415 in a 62mm can but they call it a 1413 or 1414. And the retailer has Neu produce a spec drawing that represents a can which fits the rules. Problem is that only this large retailer has access to this motor. Local hobby shops and/or other large retailers can't get it. And this retailer charges $350 for what could have been bought for $235 if "As Manufactured" is left out.

Also… Manufactured by whom? Can anyone just start making motors, produce a spec drawing and offer to sell them? So now you have a machinist putting 1415 sized stators in 62mm cans. And this machinist charges $450 for what could have been bought for $235 if "As Manufactured" is left out. And this machinist is only producing 10 of these per year so you'd better be a good friend to get a hold of one.

This “As Manufactured” thing brings a lot of questions and gets really muddy with how its interpreted. If not removed it will need a lot of explanation and definition added. Lets say someone brings a 1415 to a race and dominates. Do we just say no 1415 motors allowed? Then the next motor comes along... maybe that custom 1413 or 1414. Or TP or SSS builds something to cram all they can get into a 62mm can. Do we put them on an excluded list as well?

I think the possible future on this issue says it should just be a can size limit and let it go where it goes. If a Neu 1415 gets into races and dominates then others may start spending the $235. Or maybe someone (TP, SSS or Proboat) will start cramming more into a 62mm can and compete with the $235 Neu for less money. Let it go where it goes. Otherwise you'll have retailers, machinists and/or excluded lists to deal with in the future.

[tjcast]

Some random thoughts

"as manufactured" was something I thought should be included. Obviously I was WRONG !

People spend more time arguing the rules and figuring out how to cheat rather than how to be competitive within the rules .

People are losing sight of what was intended for a "Spec" class and their rules, or maybe I am just wrong.

Being a Devil's Advocate is what some people live for

I am so tired of all this stuff .

And It's only January !!

just my 2 cents

[T.S.Davis]

"As manufactured" will be a disaster. Sorry I didn't see it before guys.

Where the heck have you "no gap" to P guys been racing? If you're not seeing the gap youre not racing with the fast P guys. Limited has had much higher participation numbers since before there were rules for it. The threat of to P has always been there.

The old rule set can't exist anymore. AQ is going to shrivel up. What do we call it then? Proboat class? How would a new company with very high sales get to play too? Takes a year to add to the list. BTW the Proboat motor is a better motor for the class than the Neu. Based on the results that is.

I think some of you are confused about what this power level is. It's a place both new and vet guys can meet and race together. It's a compromise. New guy has a shot by buying something off the shelf. He can't do that In P. Vet guy gets enough speed to still be interested. The spec needs to focus on a common ground (pond?) That puts enough guys together to make heats. That's all limited was. Easy enough to start into and tough enough to keep guys interested. A stone stick RTR is not likely to keep the lunatics satisfied. Not long term.

This new motor spec isn't a quest for speed. It's finding the common place in between standing on shore and being a complete lunatic.

[Doug Smock]

It is frustrating Tom. The fuel guys went through the same thing with anything called "stock" or "as manufactured". I don't think cheating is where guys heads are though I imagine there may be some.

Have you seen the tech sheet for a Super Sport engine? "Stock Zenoah G26" wasn't enough. There had to be a means to tech them.
4. Stock Motor Inspection
Inspection to include all parts of motor:
a. Fasteners: Stock or Stainless
b. Gasket Thickness: Carburetor .017 to 0.023; Manifold .017 to .023; Case .017 to .019;
Base/Barrel .014 to .018 may be copper or fiber
c. Seals: Springs
d. Bearings: Stock
e. Flywheel: Thickness .800 - .810 – Keyway .118 - .123
f. Crank Rod, Piston, and Ring – Keyway .118 - .123
Piston diameter above ring compared to piston diameter below wristpin
= max. diameter difference of 0.0015
g. Intake Manifold: Thickness .680 to .702
(Allow to sand gasket sealing area only to make flat)
h. Ignition Parts – Color (original red & gray) – Slotted Holes
i. Case to Crank Shaft Top .908 - .912
j. Barrel (Cylinder) Depth 1.9650 - 2.0000
k. Must have original cooling cap – painting, anodizing, and etching allowed.
l. 34mm (1.338 inch) bore, 28mm (1.102 inch) stroke.

''As manufactured" is impossible to tech unless you have some real data as above. Even those rules have had to be edited as time went on as we found there were some known "stock" engines that were justoutside of the specifications at the time.
Can dimensions are fine and can be easily teched but be ready to accept "Frankenstein" motors. They will be showing up at a pond near you, already have. Is that cheating, or just a racer working within the rule to find a better more reliable mouse trap?

[longballlumber]

Holy Cow, this has spun grossly away from the original question. I have no idea where “as manufactured” everyone keeps quoting is coming from…

My original question had everything to do with ONE event (2017 IMPBA FE Nationals) and ONE line listed on rcraingevents. There is also a reference on rcracingevents.com to reference another document that DOES NOT list “Spec motors are to be unmodified from the factory.”

Specifically for the 2017 IMPBA FE Nationals; is this rule in place? If so how will it be enforced?

[dethow]

People spend more time arguing the rules and figuring out how to cheat rather than how to be competitive within the rules

I think the word cheat and cheater motors has been thrown around enough here.

Is a manufacture and/or retailer building the best and most desirable motor to fit within the rules cheating? There’s already been two new motors developed this past year by a boat retailer and a parts retailer with their respective names put on it in an effort to sell a desirable product that fits within the upcoming rules. That’s not cheating… that’s capitalism and entrepreneurship.
It’s only a matter of time before one of them looks in the back end of a motor and says “Hey, there’s more room in there.”

And is someone asking exactly what “As Manufactured” means cheating? I already got a verbal clarification on this matter a couple months ago from Tom and Terry which was that if a manufacture makes it and others can purchase it then it’ll be considered legal.

But now MarkF says:

We all know a 1515 can be cut down to meet the new can length. I know Neu has received orders to have 1412 motors cut down to meet specs.
Mark

Terry responded:

Neu manufactured the 1412's and just threw them in 1415 cans. So the motors came and didn't match his own drawings. Asking them to build them as advertised isn't a crime.

Mark clarified:

But a longer stator will go faster than a shorter one and there is plenty of room now for longer stators in the longer can and all it takes is to ask TP or Neu to put one in there. Cheater motor. Also the 1515 I meant to say 1415.
Mark

The response from Terry was only in regards to the 1412 and that it's fine to have a motor produced to meet advertised specs. What about the 1415 that Neu will make and anyone can buy but doesn’t meet the advertised spec sheet? The motor Mark is calling a cheater motor? Crickets….

Tom and Terry know exactly what’s going on here because I’ve told them exactly what I’ve inquired about and ordered. I’m tired of beating around the bush here…. I’ve got a $2k order with Neu for several 1415 motors that fit within the can length spec because I was told by Tom and Terry that if a manufacture makes it and others can buy it then it's legal. But now it seems we have people throwing around the cheating word and I want to know if I’m going to be called a cheater for doing something I was told was going to be allowed.

Bottom line is that I’m no cheater and I just want a clear definitive answer on what’s allowed. I thought I had that. Now I’m not so sure. If you all decide to go against what I was previously told. FINE! I’ll be out $2k, but at least I won’t spend the next 4 months setting up my boats with motors in which will raise a ruckus at nats.

And to be clear… Tom and Terry both told me that if the motors demonstrate to be dominant then they will not be allowed in the future. Future meaning next year 2019. In regards to that, I’m asking for some clarification on what process will be taken to accomplish that? Will there be an excluded motor list? Will the definition of “As Manufactured” be altered to mean that it must meet a manufactures standard spec and not even be altered by the manufacture?
And that’s fine… I’m just pointing out to you guys that in either one of those situations a retailer, manufacture and/or machinist can legally get around that by making a new motor design, having a spec drawing for it and selling it. And again... that’s not cheating. It’s capitalism and entrepreneurship.

I’m trying to be clear and up front here. Not trying to cheat. If I was trying to cheat, I’d never had said anything to anyone and just ran my motors. If challenged, I’d say “Measure them… they fit the limits allowed. And here’s the receipt from the manufacture. They are ‘unmodified from the factory’ or ‘As Manufactured’.”

My integrity means a lot to me. I’ve given up a podium position at a Michigan Cup due to being honest about a cut buoy that no one else saw including my pit. Tom and Terry both thanked me for my honesty. I take pride in that and I don’t want to be thought of and/or portrayed as a cheater of any sort. And since Tom knew exactly where my basis of conversation was coming from I am actually a bit butt sore regarding his use of the word cheat.

I will it out with him at a later date.


Mike, The “As Manufactured” phrase came into play because that's how Terry described it.

Actually, what we should have done was leave "as manufactured" completely out of it. Let guys do what ever they want inside the dims.

[T.S.Davis]

That sounds easy Doug. You impound the top three of these at every race and rip them apart to tech them right? Where do we sign up to do that job? sounds like the high point of any racers weekend. Odd though................zero mention of a brand.

"as shipped from the manufacturer" is the lie we've been living since NAMBA P Limited was first dreamed up. Put a lot of boats on the water but was never quite right. In our defense, we were ignorant. It was a different time. It did hold up longer than we guessed it would and probably longer than it should have. We've all been living a lie because NOBODY was checking "as shipped" really. You look at the motor, see a gold can, the 2030 stamp, and wires bundled with shrink..................looks good to me. Nobody....NOBODY was taking them apart to verify the wind, or the bearings, or even the rotor for that matter. "as shipped" was vague like Mike mentioned. Heck, you could argue that the bearings needed the factory lubrication. Even if you did take one apart, 2 AQ motors could have had different wire and have both been "as shipped". Ya can't know that.

I don't think of this new path as a band aide for limited the way we all knew it. I think if it as something brand new. We need something as I described previously. Something simple that puts guys who have boats into heats. A motor list isn't going to work. Impossible to verify anyway. Always was. "as manufactured" can't work for the same reason. Do we tell guys to bring their motor and it's spec sheet in case we decide to check it. A weekend race will turn into a week long race with the tech work. Not gonna happen. We've proven that.

As for the lack of gap.......I did some digging. Thunk on it some. Came up with.......who gives a rats ass? There's no gap between Q and P yet there are Q boats. The P sport oval record is a full half second faster than the Q sport record. The P mono record is over 1 second faster than Q mono. Yet......there are Q boats. P mono is faster than S mono for that matter. The only real gap speed wise is from 2s to 4s. If a power level creates more heats that have humans racing I don't care about any particular classes being butt hurt or losing entries. It's about heats. Heats er' fun. Remember fun?

New racers are going to come from the RTR market. We've already proven that part of the concept. We can't just ignore them. Well, we could but I don't see that being good for racing. Especially not good for FE. New guy isn't going out to buy a 1527 for his brand new Zeles to run in P against a Cheetah But we also have to make it attractive enough to get existing racers to want to do it with them. The idea is to fill the dead space between standing on shore watching and racing with us.

The simplest form of this brand new power level is a size limit. Size only. No "as manufactured" minutia. This what we ran all season, what we allowed at the Cup last summer, and what was run in Atlanta. There were hand wound motors at both of those major events. There was at least one hand wound motor at on our club pond too. Faster? We didn't think so.

Dave, no worries man. I feel your integrity is intact. I totallyyyyy! get your concern with that. An assault on mine over lithium polymere made me resign as national chairman. I would tell you straight up if I thought you were skirting the line. I don't think you are.

[T.S.Davis]

Here's the actual wording as proposed. Let me know what you guys think. Still think Note 2 should be revised because honestly I don't care. I can't prove either of them on race day.

Note 2:
Motor to be an in-runner to a maximum of 37mm x
62mm, any kv, any speed controller, readily
available from manufacturers (no hand winds, no
can mods).