(Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

[T.S.Davis]

Last point… if custom wind motors have such a possible advantage then why are there not more of those motors represented in the open classes? Simple obvious answer seems to be because there is no advantage and it’s not worth the time and energy it takes to do it.

Sort of.

If you think about it, every motor we buy is a custom wind. An AQ 2030 and an AQ 1800 are the same motors with different winding. Same with the PB1500 and 2000. Think TP4060. We have 3 different wind of that same motor running in a single class. We choose them from the chart and TP winds them as ordered. Same with Neu. The fact that I don't wind it with my own grubby mitts doesn't really change that. They're all chosen for the application. In theory, ordering from someone that does it for a living "should" be better than me doing it myself. That is of course, unless the original is a POS.

[Doby]

I think all stator lengths should be measured prior to racing, then seals placed on the motors so any apparent tampering will be quickly noticed.

Also, external voltage meters need to be installed that are clearly visible from the drivers stand when racing. This will help eliminate 6S packs being installed in P boats AFTER Terry has wandered around checking pack voltages prior to racing.

[dethow]

Sort of.

If you think about it, every motor we buy is a custom wind. An AQ 2030 and an AQ 1800 are the same motors with different winding. Same with the PB1500 and 2000. Think TP4060. We have 3 different wind of that same motor running in a single class. We choose them from the chart and TP winds them as ordered. Same with Neu. The fact that I don't wind it with my own grubby mitts doesn't really change that. They're all chosen for the application. In theory, ordering from someone that does it for a living "should" be better than me doing it myself. That is of course, unless the original is a POS.

Agreed... so why even add the "As Manufactured"?

Lets move beyond the custom wind question/issue.

As for cutting down a Neu 1412 or even a 1415 to fit the size rule. Anyone can email/call Lisa at Neutronics have this motor made. By "this motor" I mean a 1415 motor at 62mm length. It is manufactured by a known supplier and can be purchased by anyone who wants to place the order. So that also fits within the "As Manufactured", does it not? Will someone be called a cheater for using a motor that anyone can order/buy? Does one have to bring a receipt for their motors so they can prove it was purchased from a manufacture in its current form?

Guess I'm trying to make the point that there is nothing someone can/will do to a motor that can't be done by the manufacture. So why even add the "As Manufactured"? It just throws a scoop of dirt in a clean easy to spec rule which makes a lot of mud for people to throw around and debate for years to come.

Or maybe we add in that it has to be "As Manufactured" and able to be purchased from your local and/or national hobby shop/supplier. But then what stops one from asking their local hobby shop buddy to call Neu and get a supply of these 1415 motors? Or what stops a national/world wide dealer from having a manufacture produce something that maybe local hobby shops can't get? Like the Neu/OSE Raider motors?
The questions and debate will go on and on....

[dethow]

I think all stator lengths should be measured prior to racing, then seals placed on the motors so any apparent tampering will be quickly noticed.

Also, external voltage meters need to be installed that are clearly visible from the drivers stand when racing. This will help eliminate 6S packs being installed in P boats AFTER Terry has wandered around checking pack voltages prior to racing.

[MarkF]

As someone who knows how to wind motors. I can tell you it's done before the stator is glued into the can. After you wind the motor. The stator has to be put in a machine type device that smashes the windings flat. It would be very hard to wind one after the stator has been glued into the can. But a longer stator will go faster than a shorter one and there is plenty of room now for longer stators in the longer can and all it takes is to ask TP or Neu to put one in there. Cheater motor. Also the 1515 I meant to say 1415.

Mark

[dethow]

...and all it takes is to ask TP or Neu to put one in there. Cheater motor. Mark

If anyone can ask TP or Neu to put one in there... then how is it a "cheater motor". It's manufactured by a known supplier and anyone can order/buy from that known supplier. Is it a "cheater motor" simply because you don't want to ask a supplier for it, so no one else should be allowed to?

And like I said above. What stops a national/world wide dealer from having a manufacture produce something special that local hobby shops can't get? Is that a cheater motor? Maybe next thing OSE will do is order up a batch of 1415 motors that fit the size rules. Does that now remove it from your "cheater motors" list because a large dealer is selling them? But what about the local hobby shops? Maybe they can't get what the large dealer got...
Where does it end???

[dethow]

Where does it end???

I guess your response will be "With a 1" max stator length". Right?

Instead of having to open motors to check stators... just put max can dimensions in place and go with the fact that you can only do so much with a 62mm can. Much like you can only do so much with a 1" stator. Both limit motors but one is much easier to check/spec.

Max can dimensions allow for existing motors to be used and limit how far future motors can go and still be within the spec limits. Your proposed method of max stator dimensions will add so much work to judging events and possibly eliminate motor choices available under the can size rule. Motors which have thus far proven themselves to not have an advantage.

And every time a new motor comes out that MAY fit the stator spec both NAMBA and IMPBA officials will have to open and approve it. After all you can't expect novice racers to start open cans and measuring stators.

Just don't see your limited stator size working out and throwing around phrases like "cheater motors" it not helping. A motor which fits the can size rules and can be purchased from a manufacture by anyone... is NOT a "cheater motor".

[dethow]

Sorry that I have contributed to turning this race event thread into another motor spec debate.

I just think this stator limit idea is silly and along with the preceptions debate... I think it's clear that the "As Manufactured" portion of the rules needs to be eliminated moving forward. Just muddies the water with no real results.

Also, with Hobbico's bankruptcy taking place it just reinforces the idea that any new motor rules should be inclusive and easy to spec. Otherwise we'll just be back in this debate again in 5+ years.

Simple dimension limits should withstand the test of time along with the incoming or outgoing of manufactures, suppliers and/or dealers.
Plus easy for a novice/beginner to know if a motor is legal or not.

That's my 2cents... and with that I'll get off my box and stop hijacking this race thread. Sorry all.

[Doby]

As someone who knows how to wind motors. I can tell you it's done before the stator is glued into the can. After you wind the motor. The stator has to be put in a machine type device that smashes the windings flat. It would be very hard to wind one after the stator has been glued into the can. But a longer stator will go faster than a shorter one and there is plenty of room now for longer stators in the longer can and all it takes is to ask TP or Neu to put one in there. Cheater motor. Also the 1515 I meant to say 1415.

Mark

Well, as you seem to have figured a way to "cheat" perhaps your motors should be checked first at any races you attend.

[Doby]

Sorry that I have contributed to turning this race event thread into another motor spec debate.

I just think this stator limit idea is silly and along with the preceptions debate... I think it's clear that the "As Manufactured" portion of the rules needs to be eliminated moving forward. Just muddies the water with no real results.

Also, with Hobbico's bankruptcy taking place it just reinforces the idea that any new motor rules should be inclusive and easy to spec. Otherwise we'll just be back in this debate again in 5+ years.

Simple dimension limits should withstand the test of time along with the incoming or outgoing of manufactures, suppliers and/or dealers.
Plus easy for a novice/beginner to know if a motor is legal or not.

That's my 2cents... and with that I'll get off my box and stop hijacking this race thread. Sorry all.

You are on a good soapbox...stay on it!

[T.S.Davis]

Well, as you seem to have figured a way to "cheat" perhaps your motors should be checked first at any races you attend.

That's uncalled for John.

Needs to just be dimensions and move on.

[Doby]

Exactly.....

When conspiracy theorists start coming out of the woodwork they need to be shut down.

Can dimensions are all that's needed.

And if a racer is that pathetically insecure about whats in their Fruit of the Looms that they feel the need to "cheat" to race...well Karma is always there to even things out.

Some of these concerns being raised here borderline sheer paranoia.

Its playing with toy boats folks.

[CraigP]

Wow, this deep discussion certainly can make a newcomer just stay on the beach! It’s just so difficult to get your head wrapped around what most are using. My brother and I had an experience with go carts back in the day. The Sport classes grew at twice the rate because they had very little regulation. The Spec classes started to go away, because the same people would win with all the very expensive chassis/motor combos they would use.. Its like Deja Vu!

[Doby]

Wow, this deep discussion certainly can make a newcomer just stay on the beach! It’s just so difficult to get your head wrapped around what most are using. My brother and I had an experience with go carts back in the day. The Sport classes grew at twice the rate because they had very little regulation. The Spec classes started to go away, because the same people would win with all the very expensive chassis/motor combos they would use.. Its like Deja Vu!

Exactly....The Mich club seems to be the only ones that have spent the time this past season to try out their theories that $$$ doesn't mean victory all the time...on some thread they posted results with motors that were used and there was no apparent edge gained either way, yet there are always some rocket scientists that try and tell them what they should be doing differently.

Don't like the rules they advertise...stay home.

[MarkF]

Doby

You got a problem with me?
It's not a cheater motor if it's not in the rules so put whatever you want in there until it does. You don't have to open a motor to check stator lengths either. You could just go by weight, you can measure the windings from end to end and only check the motors of the winners like they do at most races.

Mark