Feeler thread- FE 1/10 scale unlimited hydro class in IMPBA

[Doug Smock]

Forgot to mention they are cool to watch and seem like a lot of fun. I'd have one if I'd race it more than twice a year..��

[T.S.Davis]

I'm fine with letting clubs or districts do their own thing. It's the way of both organizations really. If it puts butts on the drivers stand do it. I get it. Paralleling what other districts do might be of value though. We already ran into this with another power scheme. District A was doing it different than that district B. We didn't have a clear definition of the class so when the racers wanted to get together the host had to pick a way that would make heats. In this case there is no common water. The two can't coexist.......ever. We're not talking about a silly drive dog rule.

Guess I'm over thinking it. It's definitely not for everyone.

[T.C.]

I think the organization needs to decide the "intent" of the class.
Is it to simulate the real boats in respect to the way they look and run, in 1/10th scale, or just another hydro class.
As for open water these boats don't corner like other hydro's, they tend to skate. So holding a lane along side a sport scale hydro in a corner is asking for disaster .
The way they drive is what makes them cool though, especially the vintage boats.
JMHO T.C.

[T.S.Davis]

These guys wont experience any of that. They're using hooked fins. That slide n' glide wont happen.

[don ferrette]

I think the organization needs to decide the "intent" of the class.
Is it to simulate the real boats in respect to the way they look and run, in 1/10th scale, or just another hydro class.
As for open water these boats don't corner like other hydro's, they tend to skate. So holding a lane along side a sport scale hydro in a corner is asking for disaster .
The way they drive is what makes them cool though, especially the vintage boats.
JMHO T.C.

I hear you but with all due respect you let members decide. If this gains stream and the majority want right hand turns then that is how it shall be. You should not cater to one small group or club's wishes over the good and/or desires of the majority in an organization, that is how you wind up with stuff happening like the NAMBA 1/8 FE scale fiasco. I have been clear from the start that I will roll either way and my current build is going together to allow both. All I am doing at this point is sharing feedback that has come my way so far from those showing a genuine interest in this. And you missed the point completely about open water, if they run opposite of other classes you can't have them out there when other are running the other way hence the need for separate open water. And if the "intent" was to simulate the real ones then why are we running 1/8th FE and nitro for that matter in a clockwise direction??

[T.C.]

And if the "intent" was to simulate the real ones then why are we running 1/8th FE and nitro for that matter in a clockwise direction??

Good question: Not really sure, maybe back in the day some rocket scientist figured the torque of the motor and prop rotation would help in getting around a RH corner, and the FE guys just copy what the nitro people do.

You would have to ask someone that was there, could be as simple as not many motors ran well in the opposite direction back then?
I would like to know the answer .
T.C.

[T.S.Davis]

You should not cater to one small group or club's wishes over the good and/or desires of the majority in an organization,

Which is exactly what you're doing. You quizzed guys that have never run them to see how they wanted to do it and ignored the guys that were already doing it. Wait.....this sounds super familiar...........where have we heard this before? Oh I remember..................NAMBA's 8s scale proposal. Quiz the guys racing them? Nope, they knew better.

1/8 scale turning right dates back to the motors and propellers available. I guess............I'm ignorant in this regard. Why do nitro scales turn right? Props or motors that turned that way? I don't really know. Always seemed silly to me to call them "scale". There are guys that are crazy into the detail. The right paint. The right graphic. The right pickle depth. Driver with his life vest. Then build them completely backwards and call them "scale"? ummmmkayyyy.

1/8 FE turns right because the only boats available were those that already turned right. They were nitro hulls. Velasko, Thomas, Muck, etc. Nobody was building from wood then. Plus, some of the guys that scribbled the original IMPBA scale rules were delusional. Their plan was to run with the nitro boys. That's just never going to work. Apples and cake are both delicious but they make a crappy salad.

[tjcast]

Prop rotation strongly effects turning. Back in the day there weren't many right handed props. Trying to turn a boat left with a left handed rotating prop, especially at 8th scale speeds, was/is next to impossible. 10th scales, at slower speeds and a little throttle control, are able to make the left hand turn even with a left handed rotating prop. With the availability of more and more right handed props and brushless motors being able to turn either way, it made turning counter clockwise easier.

In my opinion the ability to emulate the real Unlimiteds in turning is one of the great things about this class. If you're going to run this class clockwise you should call it "Semi-Scale".

[T.S.Davis]

How about "Sorta Scale"?

[don ferrette]

Which is exactly what you're doing. You quizzed guys that have never run them to see how they wanted to do it and ignored the guys that were already doing it. Wait.....this sounds super familiar...........where have we heard this before? Oh I remember..................NAMBA's 8s scale proposal. Quiz the guys racing them? Nope, they knew better.

Wrong. Terry please....... stop.......... take a breath..... and let this sink in..... All I have been doing is sharing FEEDBACK received so far. AGAIN when the smoke clears and the dust settles we will do what the MAJORITY wants, if it's left we go left and if it's right we go right. And that certainly is NOT what NAMBA did in regards to FE 1/8th, that was what one group rammed down everyone else's throats under false pretense. And AGAIN how many IMPBA members are you talking about that are "already doing it"? And more importantly how many of them will venture outside their own sandbox?

1/8 scale turning right dates back to the motors and propellers available. I guess............I'm ignorant in this regard. Why do nitro scales turn right? Props or motors that turned that way? I don't really know. Always seemed silly to me to call them "scale". There are guys that are crazy into the detail. The right paint. The right graphic. The right pickle depth. Driver with his life vest. Then build them completely backwards and call them "scale"? ummmmkayyyy.

Funny how this was never an issue until this new 10th scale class came around. So everyone else is wrong even though it's been this way for YEARS? To quote you- ummmmkayyyy.

1/8 FE turns right because the only boats available were those that already turned right. They were nitro hulls. Velasko, Thomas, Muck, etc. Nobody was building from wood then. Plus, some of the guys that scribbled the original IMPBA scale rules were delusional. Their plan was to run with the nitro boys. That's just never going to work. Apples and cake are both delicious but they make a crappy salad

Incorrect. Even though they were hand made from plans wood scale hulls were around long before glass hulls. And I guessed you missed it earlier when I posted how there have been (and still are) glass hulls molded just like the real boats (Fritz, R/C Boat Co, Moceri, etc) and they actually work just fine going right. And the IMPBA FE scale rules most certainly were not penned to "run with the nitro boys". I know because I looked into running an FE 1/8th scale back when nickel metal cells were being used, lipos weren't around yet and had conversations with those "in the know" at that time. The turn off for me was the cost of top line cells and imported motors.

And I'll say it again- bottom line if this actually gets going enough to look at a set of national rules down the road we will do what the majority of racers want to do.

[T.S.Davis]

Wasting my breath....er....fingers. Don, I've been doing this rot since before Nimh. Damned matched cells were killinggggg me. I was there for the first FE 1/8 scale heats in the US. I was CD and Waters was calling the heats.

The original NAMBA rules were written by three dudes in a hotel room in Jersey in 2006. They were basically what was already being raced.

The IMPBA set was an adaptation of the great lakes gentlemens agreement. That's where the motor list came from. That set was hashed out on Pete Steinky's forum. Pete was a scale guy too. Three of those "gentlemen" were trying to run with the nitro guys in D2.

At that point neither organization ignored the existing boats/racers that were out there. Just in case there was ever a chance they could race together. Like a nats or a Michigan Cup.

The scale boats turning right isn't an issue exactly. I just don't know why they go the wrong way. I'm completely ignorant. Just doesn't seem like the choice a true scale junky would make.

Same thing with the hooked fins in both orgs. Mark Webber came by with Gold Cup for a race a few seasons ago. Photo op....p"ching! Hung out. Watched us race. Asked "why the heck do you run hooked fins." They were sport boats he was asking about but we all know they work on scales too. It does take away from the scale.....ness a bit. An issue? Not really but the boats are completely and utterly different animals with a hook. The slide n' glide mentioned earlier goes away. To some that's part of the allure. Its a different driving style.

Having two districts or more running it different will guarantee the BOD wouldn't give it the seal of approval anyway. So overthinking it.........again. hahaha. Kinda my thing.

[don ferrette]

Terry ya know I think the world of ya man. In the end all I wanna do is get boats on the water be it left, right or figure 8s. Hmmm, figure 8s... now THAT would be a hoot, like the old demolition derby days.

[dethow]

How does IMPBA decide what the majority wants?
As far as I see the BODs decide which rules they are willing to put out there for vote and then those rules may or may not pass based on membership (majority) vote.

So Terry... I see your concern. Don showed his cards with this statement "and they are set up for right hand turning so us running these in D12 in the normal clockwise direction is pretty much looking like the direction we will take."

But be careful Terry and Tom. Create too much controversy on the issue and IMPBA will never put rules in the book. They'll just allow the classes to run at National Events and let the host club dictate the rules. And those rules may be different from year to year. Just a can of worms that's now been opened and you'll all have to live with.

Bottom line is that if IMPBA seriously wants to consider adding 10th scale to the rule book then there should be serious consideration given to the already existing NAMBA rules for 10th scale so that cross over can occur. And I’d have to think that since 10th scale has been in the NAMBA rules and clubs have built boats and run those rules… it’d be an easy calculation to say that’s what MAJORITY of racers want. They want to use their boats that are already built and not have them made obsolete due to a turn fin being on the wrong side to meet IMPBA lap directions.

Terry and Tom, Is MMEU ready to go back to NAMBA yet???
1.) They have fixed their issue on oversight for rule proposals.
2.) They have added conduct accountability at events and talk of expanding to outside events.
3.) They have P-Limited rules in the book and are WILLING to modify them to fit modern needs.
4.) They have offshore rules in the book and MAY be willing to discuss modifications.
5.) They have 10th Scale in the book already. Proper left hand turning. No hooked fins on Vintage.

Just seems to me that IMPBA is showing over and over again that they want to do what they want to do regarding FE with no regard to NAMBA or what the real majority want. And then beyond that they’ve drawn a line in the sand on some classes they just don’t want in the book (despite the majority wanting them) and will move forward by allowing host clubs to dictate rules at National Events. This means there could be different rules from year to year based on what the host club and current BODs want with no regard for what full membership wants or consistency.

Just something to think about guys…

[mpschofield]

Ok David... I have read enough of your non sense to finally bite. Probably shouldnt but I'll bite and respond to you continued slander towards IMPBA.

First one. How does the board decide what members want? Well David it takes a group of boaters to propose a rule change. This gets approved, denied or tabled during a board meeting by those that attend. If its approved it goes for a one year trial and then the membership gets to decide yay or nay to add class/rule what have you to the rule book. So thats how members decide.

Me personally all I want to know if its good for the membership and good for the hobby. Do we need to put a class in the rule book everytime 5-6 guys build the same boat thats not a class.... probably not. You grow the hobby at the local level not in the rule book. I think its great that the Michigan guys run 1/10 scale different than Don and the virginia guys will. Chances of them getting together to run a race. Slim. Chances of each club gaining more boats to the club by doing what works for them. Probable. You talk as if IMPBA has started to draft rules to work against others. That is NOT TRUE
All that is taking place is a discussion. Holy cow..

If you want something changed then write an actual proposal and submit it the way you are supposed to and how everyone else has in the past. You state that the BOD turn down classes even though that majority of members want them. Well im dying to know what classes the BOD have completley turned down to not allow membership to vote on them. (Possibly the P- Spec Class?)

Instead of wasting all of your energy to write these posts why dont you propose some rules.... I have raced and chatted with many of your comrades. Nice passionate bunch of boaters. Thats what got me hooked on this hobby was the people not the classes in the rule book.

Im all done and going to go sniff some gas fumes.... Peace.

Can we please get back to the kit that Don stole right from under me on IW

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[dethow]

Matt,
Congrats on your upcoming presidency and I really hope some positive changes may come.

To answer your questions quick:
1.) The board doesn’t decide what members WANT…But they do decide what members GET. If a proposal is made that the BODs don’t like they can and will terminate the proposal and it never goes to membership vote.
2.) Option # 3 does not come into effect if the proposal was terminated by the BODs.
3.) No, IMPBA shouldn’t put a class in the book that 5-6 guys have a boat for. But a class that is the most popular in all of FE should be considered for the rule book. I can’t say the classes or the moderators here will delete the post. But I’m not talking about 10th Scale.
4.) I do state that the BODs turn down classes even though the majority of members want them. And that’s why it’s no use making proposals because the BODs have made it clear privately and publically that there is a VERY popular class in FE that they just will not consider to be allowed in the rule books. Again… not talking about 10th Scale.

Matt I really do hope you can stand back and take a look at the current course for FE in IMPBA and the way classes have been allowed to run at the last FE Nationals and be awarded National Champion status. If the classes are not in the rule book they should not be getting those designations.

Sorry you see things I say as slander, but I do argue that something has to be false to be slander and I’ve said nothing that’s not true. The reason I’m pissing off so many in IMPBA is that there are no answers for these truths. The most recent responses are that I’m the only one who cares that rules are being broken so I should just shut up.

Again… I hope you and the future of IMPBA may change that. Good luck to you.

But with all this and that said... I'm not getting drug back into a forum debate for people to demonize me for wanting rules followed and wanting the BODs to do what majority of members want. As I said, I hope you will step back and look at the situation. I'm more then willing to have a private phone conversation with you to discuss if you'd like. I'm not the A-Hole some have demonized me to be. Just PM and we can exchange some contact info if you'd like. If not... best of luck to you. But please don't accuse my of slander again unless you can site a false statement I made.

And please back too 10th scale discussion please.... sorry to point out a continued lack of potential consistency in rules. All I guess I'm saying is that you'd get more turn out at National Events if more guys ran the same rules. Keep promoting that each district do their own thing and you'll have 15 districts racing within district only let alone allowing for close over with NAMBA racers.

Because that's something an organization should bring. A level of consistency in rules so different districts can race together.
Not as you put it "Chances of them getting together to run a race. Slim."
Might as well call it a shared insurance program, not a National Racing Organization.