Dynamic high speed balancing services

[graill]

Found a service after a lengthy search of a year and change and a boatload of refusals, a company in New York, Schenck Trebel Corporation will balance our props to a desired SERVICE rpm. Contact is Joe Palazzolo, Senior application engineer supervisor of the balancing services. They are a production facility providing balancing services for just about anything. Was very suprised to see he would even bother with something as small as our props.

I have included a couple pics on a junk test prop and 2 of the 4 sheets of balance data that came back, quite a huge difference with the before and after. The pics show a dynamic balance to 45k service rpm, Joe said they are capable of taking the balance even higher and would be able to get the target centers nearly dead on, but that would cost more. Right now a flat fee is 45 bucks for what is shown. They made a custom arbor for this and would do so for any prop sent that they did not have on hand. I did not get the arbor back with the prop.

You will need to contact Joe and discuss pricing if you want more or less or do bulk or whatever. You would also need to discuss shipping.

balanceafter.jpgbalancebefore.jpgprop1.jpgprop2.jpgprop3.jpg
One photo flashed a bit to brightly and a balance hole looks rough, the balance holes are clean and smooth. The blade shown is a test mule with basic static balance done before i sent it to him, the photos are what i recieved back. He can dynamically balance any prop for any operating service rpm. For those that do not understand the difference between static and dynamic, static is balanced while still (not operational rpm) dynamic is operational rpm balancing. Big difference. You can see from the results it was quite huge.

As for what the prop did that i got back. suffice to say the high rpm vibration was gone on a friends test boat verse his stock prop (both were 467, throttle limit restricted to 70% because we were dry testing). Folks need to do their own testing and observations since this availability is new for folks.

Email for Joe is: Joseph.Palazzolo@schenck-usa.com

Steve and myself are receiving nothing from this. This is a service i found and and FYI to those that want to use it. Some may find the static balance sufficient since no type of dynamic balance service has been available anywhere until now. So use it or not, curious to see if this does anything for anyone.

[m4a1usr]

Steve and myself are receiving nothing from this. This is a service i found and and FYI to those that want to use it. Some may find the static balance sufficient since no type of dynamic balance service has been available anywhere until now. So use it or not, curious to see if this does anything for anyone.

Not quite true. I have been using a dynamic balancer for more than 2 years from a local service I helped develop for another similar requirement. But. I do commend you for pursueing this method of achieving what we all seek, thats perfection or max eff in our setups. Great stuff Grail. And the price you quote is quite resonable. I hope those who want to sqeak out the last few percentile of their setups seek this service. Oh,..........and ensure your drive line is balanced as well. This logic of using floating bushings, without defining maximum dimensional limits is nothing more than an open invitation to failure or delusional mentality. I'm not going that road again with anybody. Tolerances of components are what allows our systems to behave where we want them to. Design in them to be loose and you just added limits of what they can achieve in max eff. Decrease loose tolerances and they can perform at much better eff levels. Its not rocket science. Heck. Look at the aircraft industry such as turbine blades. You think they have large gaps? Google how much tolerance does an intake blade or better yet. A compressor blade have. Whats that you find? Hmm,.......they know friction dont they? Better leverage off that science to make your system perform at its peak.


John

[jkr]

WOW.
With so many holes (for my eyes) tells that how much unballanced are our prop at the time they spin!

[Mike Caruso]

Found a service after a lengthy search of a year and change and a boatload of refusals, a company in New York, Schenck Trebel Corporation will balance our props to a desired SERVICE rpm. Contact is Joe Palazzolo, Senior application engineer supervisor of the balancing services. They are a production facility providing balancing services for just about anything. Was very suprised to see he would even bother with something as small as our props.

I have included a couple pics on a junk test prop and 2 of the 4 sheets of balance data that came back, quite a huge difference with the before and after. The pics show a dynamic balance to 45k service rpm, Joe said they are capable of taking the balance even higher and would be able to get the target centers nearly dead on, but that would cost more. Right now a flat fee is 45 bucks for what is shown. They made a custom arbor for this and would do so for any prop sent that they did not have on hand. I did not get the arbor back with the prop.

You will need to contact Joe and discuss pricing if you want more or less or do bulk or whatever. You would also need to discuss shipping.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80641[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]80642[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]80643[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]80644[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]80645[/ATTACH]
One photo flashed a bit to brightly and a balance hole looks rough, the balance holes are clean and smooth. The blade shown is a test mule with basic static balance done before i sent it to him, the photos are what i recieved back. He can dynamically balance any prop for any operating service rpm. For those that do not understand the difference between static and dynamic, static is balanced while still (not operational rpm) dynamic is operational rpm balancing. Big difference. You can see from the results it was quite huge.

As for what the prop did that i got back. suffice to say the high rpm vibration was gone on a friends test boat verse his stock prop (both were 467, throttle limit restricted to 70% because we were dry testing). Folks need to do their own testing and observations since this availability is new for folks.

Email for Joe is: Joseph.Palazzolo@schenck-usa.com

Steve and myself are receiving nothing from this. This is a service i found and and FYI to those that want to use it. Some may find the static balance sufficient since no type of dynamic balance service has been available anywhere until now. So use it or not, curious to see if this does anything for anyone.

Great find !!!!
Static and Dynamic is the correct way to balance a rotating mass. Dynamic gets more important as the mass gets wider. Example CD's very narrow, 8" wide car tire very wide. One thing when you are trying to balance a prop and we have done this, when you go to far the heavy point will switch locations. Drilling works fine but if you go too far you will see that a shallow hole will be drilled 180 degrees opposite to correct the first removal amount. In the EARLY days 1940, 50 & 60's trying to Dynamic balance V8 racing crankshafts it was called in the field....'drilling and filling'. Because if you Drilled out too much and the counter weight went light, you would have to Fill the hole back up with a steel slug and weld it in place.
I'll be calling Joe on Monday.
Mike

[kingwrench]

Mike great info will def use this service.

[Basstronics]

In case anyone was unaware Schenck is a manufacturer of balancing equipment. I worked in a high end crank manufacturing facility for awhile producing some top tier cranks (LS7, Viper, Ford GT40, Hummer to name a few) and all of our balancers were Schenck. Note dynamic balancing is an art of sorts- a skilled operator can do a much better job than a rookie as there is a "feel" for it.

I might opt in on this on my JAE after it comes back and see the before/after gains (if any). In this hobby $45 aint much money for an experiment of sorts.

[properchopper]

I may be missing the point ( happens to me a lot) but going to great lengths to achieve optimum balance, statically and/or dynamically and then mounting it up linked to what usually is an out-of-balance drive dog makes me wonder. This has been addressed before and the answer seemed to be that the entire drive line needs to be balanced as a unit before maximum results are achieved. If anything, since this thread is about props only, and the prop/drive dog mate up as one, I'd think balancing the prop/drive dog together makes sense. Just sayin'..........

[Basstronics]

I guess this may depend on the arbor they made to balance these props on.

If it was made with a straight shaft and a drive dog it should then be fairly accurate. The key will fit into the prop and there will be some gap. The steel will be heavier than the props material, so the gap will help offset this effect to an extent.

But like m4a1usr said, if your struts a loose goose whats the difference...

Worth a test I suppose. I bet this would work out best for those with a ball bearing setup.

Also the way these balancers work you wouldnt be able to balance with the flex cable.

[TristanJones]

I may be missing the point ( happens to me a lot) but going to great lengths to achieve optimum balance, statically and/or dynamically and then mounting it up linked to what usually is an out-of-balance drive dog makes me wonder. This has been addressed before and the answer seemed to be that the entire drive line needs to be balanced as a unit before maximum results are achieved. If anything, since this thread is about props only, and the prop/drive dog mate up as one, I'd think balancing the prop/drive dog together makes sense. Just sayin'..........

Im with this guy ^^

[Mike Caruso]

I may be missing the point ( happens to me a lot) but going to great lengths to achieve optimum balance, statically and/or dynamically and then mounting it up linked to what usually is an out-of-balance drive dog makes me wonder. This has been addressed before and the answer seemed to be that the entire drive line needs to be balanced as a unit before maximum results are achieved. If anything, since this thread is about props only, and the prop/drive dog mate up as one, I'd think balancing the prop/drive dog together makes sense. Just sayin'..........

You bet Tony....It might be that you have to send your arbor with your props. I checked into buying a machine 5 years ago which does Turbo wheels and shaft assembly's or our propeller/shaft assembly's $6000.00 new $3000.00 used. I would have to do a lot of everything just to pay for the machine.
Mike

[KartRacer]

Have to agree with properchopper, a " perfectly" balanced prop goes to hell in a hurry with all of the stacked up tolerances of the driveline. The current way to balance which is probably not even close to perfection is good enough for me!:)

[properchopper]

With sincere apologies to Mr. Grail and the others here for making light of a truly important issue , I offer for your amusement the following video of what happened while balancing a prop/drive dog combo when a poltergeist got involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa_psjdj7XU

[Mike Caruso]

With sincere apologies to Mr. Grail and the others here for making light of a truly important issue , I offer for your amusement the following video of what happened while balancing a prop/drive dog combo when a poltergeist got involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa_psjdj7XU

Love the video Tony!
Have you ever checked just the shaft for balance? My little balancer like yours came with the shafts, but the shafts did not run true. Seems the points on the ends are not in center of the shaft and also different from side to side. Some thing a new person to boating might not notice while trying to balance they first propeller.
I was in contact with Joe Joseph.Palazzolo@schenck-usa.com who really helpful. He also let me know they have another location 20 minutes from me. It's just outside of Chicago,IL in Elk Grove and I am going to stop out there and visit with Tom who is in charge there.
Joe said YES it would be the correct way to balance the prop with the stub shaft and drive dog. Which he said he could do if the person (s) sent him their stub shaft and drive dog along with their props. In 1972 when I first met Tom P. from Octura I asked about balancing and he said the drive line is more of a problem as engines are turning higher rpm.
Regard's to all. And Tony you have the right attitude keeping the hobby FUN sometimes we talk ourselves to seriously!!!
Mike

[justski]

Love the video Tony!
Have you ever checked just the shaft for balance? My little balancer like yours came with the shafts, but the shafts did not run true. Seems the points on the ends are not in center of the shaft and also different from side to side. Some thing a new person to boating might not notice while trying to balance they first propeller.
I was in contact with Joe Joseph.Palazzolo@schenck-usa.com who really helpful. He also let me know they have another location 20 minutes from me. It's just outside of Chicago,IL in Elk Grove and I am going to stop out there and visit with Tom who is in charge there.
Joe said YES it would be the correct way to balance the prop with the stub shaft and drive dog. Which he said he could do if the person (s) sent him their stub shaft and drive dog along with their props. In 1972 when I first met Tom P. from Octura I asked about balancing and he said the drive line is more of a problem as engines are turning higher rpm.
Regard's to all. And Tony you have the right attitude keeping the hobby FUN sometimes we talk ourselves to seriously!!!
Mike

Mike how you check the shaft for balance?....i am new to boating and balance props and i been working on my prop for hours its like one time its balanced then its out of balance its making me nuts worse than my wife .LOL

[Mike Caruso]

Glad to tell you how I did mine and I am sure there are other ways and you can get nuts quick.
Do you have a magnetic type balancer? If yes just take a Sharpe marking pen and put a line on the shaft end to end. Now spin it in the balancer a few times. It will be in balance when the shaft does not always stop in the same location like the prop does when you started working on it and it's heavy on one side. If the shaft ends are ground in the center, and finished so the shaft runs true plus stops anywhere your good. There is the possibility of a shaft being pulled to one spot by magnets something to do with the metal.
Now if you have an Octura Prop balancer 'steel shaft which rolls on steel shafts' or one like it you do not have any ends to be ground centered. Just level it and roll the shaft noting the position it stops in every time. Remember the Tether Boat racers used a block of wood and two razor blades and ran 150 and higher mph.
Pay close attention to the balance shaft fit into the propeller. If the hole in the prop is too loose it will not repeat and you will be happy to take the wife out for a dinner.
Mike