Whos making these wire drive coupling systems?

[RaceMechaniX]

OK, so you want to build a scale boat. Do you plan on racing the boat within IMPBA and NAMBA?

IMPBA only allows 3 motors officially, but have a slightly larger list to include TP4070's and Leopard motors I believe. I could not find the official announcement on expanding the motor list. These motors are eligible to race, but not set any records. Best to reach out to our National FE Director Mike Ball on the legal motors. His contact info is on the "officers" tab of the IMPBA site.

All of the motors listed can be competitive with the right set-up.

Again I would advise against a stiff solid shaft drive system, run a 3/16" or 1/4" flex cable or use a 3mm wire. All of those will allow a bend in the cable and some compliance in the alignment of the components.

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,
Ill look at 3mm wire but I still prefer going to a straight shaft .
I don't see how a neu 1527/1530 is fairly classed with a 2280 LMT. There's a significant difference in these two machines with respect to mass and mechanical capability. I have the list . Ball posted the addendum. It is on the home page very top of the list, and it states that none of them can be used for speed trails which I don't understand. I'm an already a IMPBA member.

FE 1/8 Scale Motor Technical Notice
As a result of a BOD discussion surrounding the limited options for FE 1/8 Scale motors, we would like all IMPBA districts to allow the following motors listed below be allowed to run in the FE 1/8 Scale Class.This is, of course, in addition to the currently approved motors that are listed in the IMBPA rulebook. It should also be stated the motors listed below CANNOT be used for record trials.While at the local level clubs have ALWAYS been able to make alterations to the national rule set for their local events in an effort to encourage participation, this public request is an effort to establish a common agreement between districts allowing those with FE 1/8 scale boats to travel outside of their home club or district and be allowed to race the class with one of the motors listed above.The ONLY request the IMPBA has is to provide feedback. The more detail you can provide to the organization the better! This will allow the IMPBA to be better informed with actual data in racing conditions. All feedback can be communicated directly back to the IMPBA National Fast Electric Director.Contact information can be found on the IMPBA Website.
Best Regards,
Mike Ball

TP Power TP4070
HET Typhoon 700-98
Turnigy SK3 3994
Leopard 4092

I don't get it about not using these motors for SAW.


Thanks
Hubert

[eXoNerated]

Hi Dr.Jet/Tyler,

I've found the 3.175mm wire. So lets try this. If I need a slight bend the possibility is now there. @ Tyler have you gone as deep as trying to balance the props stub shaft with the drive dog in place? What material did you use to make the couplers out of?


Thanks,
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

Hubert,

If you are building a straightway boat you will need to use one of the three approved motors. The Plett is dated and I am unsure if it is competitive anymore. A Neu 1530 and LMT 2280 are similar sized and power output motors, but their characteristics are different. Neu motors are 4-poles which like to be run at lower speed ranges compared to the 2-pole LMT's. The biggest factor in choosing a motor is which controller will you use. The LMT is easy to drive with just about any controller, however the Neu can be difficult with some controllers. You will want to use 10S for a SAW boat to maximize the power with a limited amperage range from available controllers.

I do not balance my stub shafts, but do ensure the components are a tight fit and symmetric. By symmetric I mean my drive dogs have two set-screws on opposite sides.
The couplers we machined are from 7075 aluminum. Franz Spannagel makes some nice 8mm to ER11 collet type couplers. You can buy ER11 collets from any industrial supply house, Amazon or McMaster Carr. They are available in inch and metric sizes so you can use 3mm or 1/8" wire. https://www.facebook.com/pg/CNC-Fr%C...4118732/about/

IMG_20171209_143745.jpgcoupling.jpg

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,
I will contact FranZ to get the collets. I have contacted Steve and inquired about a 1530 with high speed F5D rotor option. I will decide between it and the 2260/80. I find the 2260 a more direct comparison size wize. The 2280 extra 100 grams will make a different on overall power output. Generally speaking more iron can produce more power. Of the three it will likely carry the most. Nonetheless I'm def not oppsed to a 2280 :)

The ADP Pro HV 20s 300 is the most power dense in the world and can do 40kW.
Right now I dont think theres anything better, off a shelf for us.

Regards,
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

If you are running a Scale in SAW you likely want as much motor as possible given the restricted options. I would only choose a 2280 or 1530. Do not go too hot with the KV. Cars and planes can allow for hot set-ups, but boats are unforgiving. If you opt for the 1530 look at the 1Y or the 1.5D. Any hotter and you are asking for a dumpster fire. If you go with the LMT 2280 look for a 6 or 7 wind. BTW, the LMT motors are an "ironloss" design and for short bursts have exceptional power output if the motor controller can drive the current necessary.

I know the APD controllers look nice on paper, but I believe they are not compatible with traditional ground type radios. They were designed for quadcopters with very fast frame rates and special protocols. several friends have tried these without success. Those controllers also have no liquid cooling option which is a must for a SAW boat.

The most desirable speed control for SAW is the out of production "old" Schulze 40.160wk. It is near unobtainable and those who have them do not sell them except for crazy money.
Other proven ESC's include MGM's (25064, 40063, 80063, 28026, 25035), converted Castle's (Edge/ICE 200) and Kontronik (Kosmik 300).
I can vouch for those listed above. There are other ESC's from Swordfish, ZTW and other's, but have not run any of them so I will not comment.

[eXoNerated]

They are not ironless they are slotless. No cogging detent. An air coil with a 2 pole wouldnt make much torque. The coils are pressed inside an iron ring..larger airgap than a slotted neu. If the class has no minimum voltage you can run the high kv at lower voltage hi c parallel packs. The mechanical limit is more of an issue. High rpms. A high speed rotor is requested but not necessarily a hot motor who knows. A lower voltage setup might utilize lith supercapacitors for enuf surge current .APD has a better board design and capabilities than them all.. smaller and lighter. None of them can run a high pole outrunner at 100000 rpm but this can. It can run a lower induction motor than any of the drives mentioned with 3 times the pwm. Probably
The issue some have with the competition wound Neu. The adjustable brake is synchronous rectified just like mgm. A 1200.00 dollar drive this is. The price of Schulze 40.160 wk no issue. Again my prefrence drive can do 40kw. And runs over 1000000 erpms. It also has low pass and notch filtering through a beta flight card using dshot protocol. The " marine " controllers have nothing in these regards.

Regards
Hubert.

[eXoNerated]

A slotless iron core and various carbon steel wires and brass tubing picked up today.

Regards ,
Hubert

[eXoNerated]

@ Tyler
Here is their 1980 uf 100 volt cap bank. I had the prototype b4 anyone on the forums direct from ADP. Now Steve sells them all. It is a balance array put together with transistors and diodes. When has the other manufacturers put so much time into caps? It also has the internal array of discrete MLCC's. Check it out.

Regards
Hubert

[NativePaul]

You have me very intrigued by this Hubert. I am not an electrical engineer by any stretch of the imagination, can you explain this to a layman like me please.

I know caps increase in size, weight and cost for the same capacity the higher the voltage rating is, and I know from my datalogs that coming off the throttle can generate extra voltage above the battery voltage, but most ESCs use a cap rating 20% with an overhead of above their battery voltage rating at most, and my datalogs have never shown that much. What is the advantage to using 100v caps in a 10 cell 42v nominal boat for a voltage overhead of near 140%? Are there peaks this high that are of too short a duration to show up on my datalogs?

Maybe I am off on my definitions, I think of transistors as switches, diodes as one way valves, and I have never heard of MLCCs, what do these components do together, and how do they help flatten out the ripple voltage? all i can imagine is that it is able to switch between having all 8 caps in parallel and having 2s4p for less capacity but much lower resistance, though I dont know how it would switch it appropriately, or even know when it would want to.
You call it a balance array and I don't understand that either, is its purpose even still to flatten out the ripple voltage, or are you hooking each cell up to one of these and using it to keep the cells in balance somehow?

[eXoNerated]

Hi Paul,
Miss your site....
MLCC = multilayer ceramic capacitors. Paul 100 volt caps wont do anything any different at 42 volts but the drive will run up to 20S so the cap bank broadly accommodates these voltages. You see the array of MLCC to compliment the electrolytic. In my own bank boards I solder these between the legs of the electrolytic. You see the typical 63volt caps on a 12s drive. U see how compact the drive is. As you know a larger cap has a longer RC charge time and the MLCC have very short RC time so they accommodate the faster transients much better than the bulk electrolytic. Using them in compliment with electrolytic is a sound practice but I know no one else in hobby that does it. They have success without it so I guess this is just one of those finite things someone at the edge may consider.

Here is a photo of the 200F3 12 s lipo .
thDC12AW5Q.jpg

MLCC



A lesson on Synchronous Rectification
Freewheeling on another level. What MGM and APD use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_rectification

[eXoNerated]

Hi Paul
This is a 40 ampere 6s drive I received long ago. It can peak over 100 amperes with heat sink so this little drive is over a hp. It's .3grams.

Regards
Hubert

[RaceMechaniX]

My mistake Hubert, you are correct the LMT's are slotless not ironless.
I'll be watching intently to see if the APD ESC's work.
Do you plan on running at Elizabeth City?

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler ,
I dont think Id be ready by then. We haven't spoken about the boat yet. But anyway here is a log from a german speed plane. This is without any water cooling. 22 Kw barely breathing at 399 amperes.


BTW
I forgot to tell you.The Pro HV accepts all radio input protocols including pwm. The other drives have pwm firmware options and can be user flashed or pre flashed at the factory. Neu can also flash them for you. Of course I would likely be the first to use it in a high performance model boat of this nature but the relationship I have with APD is very good therefore whatever I find is great for us.We can help them develop an appropriate firmware if need be but for what we are doing it def has balls. But like Shulze and anything else of course it could be smoked. It does have current limiting and seems to mitigate excessive overcurrent situations quite well. From the design standpoint the fets on it are newer and more efficient and carry more copper than those used on the Wk's of old.

We will see.

[eXoNerated]

Hi Tyler,
What is the milliampere hour maximum allowed in S & T hydro and Sport Hydro? Im scouting Everette B. Jordan lake for coves.Its only a few miles from my place. In the morning you can find glass. This would be closer to you and you could test and tune there no issues. For some reason morning always host smooth water. There are some beach areas that would be ideal for launches and many times unoccupied so there's no one around.

Regards,
Hubert