2s racing?

[rol243]

lambo, you should make a new post regarding your model in question as this post is about 2s class racing. sorry.

[Doug Smock]

8? Dang Terry there is going to be a blood bath! I hope we can all remain friends!

Looking forward to seeing how much glue you've been sniffin.

You know what to do.

Have a great day fellas!

D

[T.S.Davis]

I wanted to build a 1/10 hydro. Checked with the club and they don’t run scale 1/10 or 1/8.

Then after extensive research I decided that I could get a cat and run offshore p-limited. I’m looking at a 29” MM2 or a 34” cheetah (which is allegedly 1/4” too long.)

So you have the noob that shows up with his Traxxas or miss geico or whatever and finds out that he can’t race anything

I'll try to help. No worries. Another thread might be a good idea but I don't care.

On the Cheetah not all are over. If it is it can be sanded to fit the 34". Cheetah is good for P. Kind of lumbers in limited. The MM2 is a better limited boat. Pretty killer in fact.

With the Geico it would depend on which version. Out of the box as sold today it would not be legal by the book anywhere. The motor it comes with is not on NAMBA's motor list and IMPBA has no rules for entry level racers. Many clubs that are running limited or "spec" have adopted their own version of it. Even though the rule books are behind the racers have evolved without them. If you find an electric club you're likely to find them running some form of "limited/spec/whatever".

The Traxxas is a toy. It fits in a class but wont be competitive. It's so flexible that it changes shape when you put the coals to it. If you drive a lot of boats and then drive one of those you'll see what I mean. Can't really explain it. It's like you can feel it bending. The old FDM 32 was like this if you didn't put stringers in it. The class it fits into is a rarity too. It's just not popular. Some clubs run it but not on the regular.

10th scale is missing from IMPBA. The more I think on it the less I think it needs to be there. "Build it and they will come" is how the NAMBA rule book has become class loaded. I admit that I was part of that era that caused the problem. GUILTY! Every time someone had a cool idea it was added added added. ECO, Cracker, OPC, 10th, 1/8th, give us more more more. Trouble was.........we never got rid of anything ever. We're like pack rats. Now there are 39 classes. Ugh. We didn't need a national rule set for clubs that liked something to run it.

We passed 1/8 scale in both orgs despite the fact that there really wasn't a huge demand. The IMPBA version is ridiculous. Registration for the 1 dozen FE scales that exist from coast to coast? Really? It takes boats from at least 3 or 4 districts to even make a heat. To be allowed to race, those boats are supposed to be registered in their districts.

The answer moving forward (I think at least) is to respond to what puts racers on the stand and not to pass rules in hopes that it will. More of a "race it and they will come" approach. If what your racing inspires others and growth results........ it might need to be in the book then.

I always wanted to race plastic soda bottles. Thought it would be silly. Add it to the rule book? HOW BOUT NO!!!

[longballlumber]

Jay, we did that with the RTR's. Didn't stick. Guys got bored. They only work if the club has no other racing history or experience. If you have guys that will race anything that floats it doesn't hold up. New guys it could I think.

What makes you think it "didn't stick" or it didn't work? It accomplished all of the following and some:

2012 was the first year and it ended in ’15? 4 years isn’t bad at all. We knew all along it wouldn’t last forever.

It provided a platform for MANY new racers in our club. Some are still racing and some are not. Several of your active members started here and quickly moved into different boats/classes and continued to run the class.

It provide a class that “squandered” the perception that one persons “equipment” is better than another’s; promoting a level playing field.

It provided enough speed to have “fun” without burning down equipment. Other than Dave, I don’t think anyone burnt up a motor due to being over propped.

The class was well represented at the MI Cup and National events MMEU hosted

I just don’t understand why you’re painting such a bleak picture of a true Stock Spec (or Box Stock) class when in our case it worked.

[T.S.Davis]

I just don’t understand why you’re painting such a bleak picture of a true Stock Spec (or Box Stock) class when in our case it worked.

It's fair argument Mike. Didn't think of it like that. We were able to set the hooks in some guys. Some stayed. Maybe it needed an update or something. A Veles or a Skater class or something. Don't know if we need it or if it would expand MMEU ranks. I suppose I could say that N2 Sport had similar results. That held up for a few years and set the hooks in a few. You and I may be the only ones left from that span. Not being able to just buy one didn't help.

Is there a gas or nitro class that brings people out? Not a criticism. I'm so ignorant about things that burn fuel. How are they setting the hook? They clearly are. The numbers are the numbers.

[CraigP]

Here’s my take on your question Terry:

Gas and nitro are easier to understand... They also break less parts that cost a lot of money. Engines can be rebuilt. Even throwing a rod is a pretty simple pit fix if the block isn’t ventilated, which is rare.

But FE, batteries go bad when old... That is a major cost concern to many, just like hybrid cars. ESC’s blow up, $150-300 right there... And you can’t rebuild an electric motor, although you should never need to except for rotor bearings. You also need a good charging system, not cheap either...

There’s also the need to keep the hull water tight in FE. Gas and fuel boats just need a water tight radio box. A lot of folks run with a freaking open hole in the back to let water out while running. These are real factors, to people looking to the most economical way to enter the sport. I have many years experience in all things electrical, so I didn’t see this as an obstacle. But to many that just come and talk to me while I’m running, the up front expense is daunting. They are ALL very excited and fall in love right away. I can almost gaurantee you that if I had a fuel boat that I would hook some. FE’s are not cheap!

[T.S.Davis]

There's also the fact that most men grow up around gas motors. Lawn mowers, weed whips, chain saws even. We're as dudes around it. Many of us at least. Then in our teens many are car nuts. POISONED! .....er......I mean.......exposed to it.

[eric113]

This been interesting read.

Here my two cents from noob coming in.

I bought a Miss geico after seeing M41 and blackjack run. I could tell from just watching BJ running I would like better. Also after doing reading that it could be raced in limited I was sold. I was invited out to HOTMBC and been enjoy racing with them. One other guy on the club races a Miss geico, so been fun going back and worth with him on who faster.
I won a UL-19 and now peaked my interest into hydros, so much I now want to build ML boatworks GSX 310 and 380. But since I'm noob I will continue to build and tune the UL-19 till someone wants to buy it.

After watching Jim V and Tom T bring out their N2 hydros. I was thinking those are fast as hell for only 2s! Jay said he sell me his. Sold! I enjoy running the hell out of it even it just at club level.

Is any of organizations board members even reading any of this on here or Facebook? Change and updating does need to happen.

[CraigP]

There's also the fact that most men grow up around gas motors. Lawn mowers, weed whips, chain saws even. We're as dudes around it. Many of us at least. Then in our teens many are car nuts. POISONED! .....er......I mean.......exposed to it.

Yes, and I can testify to that! I grew up with everything that turned and burned! Built my first alcohol motor at 14 for 5 Litre class Hydro. Built a motor for a AA digger at 16, just to name two. I hated wires! I worked as a mechanic in auto and marine until I was 25... But then, I grew tired of the grease, just one too many dirty tranny jobs! My girlfriend said she saw an ad for a school for Electronic Technology. I told her “I hate wires!” She said what do you have to lose, dirty finger nails? Point taken... I went, took a test and then attended an 18 month program, got my ASEE degree. The rest is history. Completely lost interest in all things gas. Three years later went back and got my BSEE. I even have EGO mower, trimmer and blower, running 56V LiPo power.

But until that point, it was all gas baby! Yes, you are right, fuel is in our genes. Electric is still too new. But I got some youngsters looking to get their first electric boat, but then the parents bitch about the money!

I guess I’m going to keep beating this dead horse until someone listens. You guys have got to find a way to run these batteries less hard! They need to last 3-4 years, minimum... Five would be great. The only way to do that is to run less current thru the system... It’s going to really take some brain storming to figure it out.

I got a bit off track up there, but the point is to hook them early and make it affordable. BTW Terry, I appreciate you’re response.

[T.S.Davis]

Is any of organizations board members even reading any of this on here or Facebook? Change and updating does need to happen.

They are here and there. If for no other reason than the fact that I'm a complete and utter pain in the a$$. I was asked by someone who shall go un-named to address some of these through the proper procedure. So ima gonna. Try at least.

The IMPBA board is decent in that they have options as to what to do with proposals. The BOD represents their district members. It's their job to know what their gang needs. It's why they're elected. As group they can flush a proposal outright. If a proposal is BS they'll know. They can make it a trial set for year. See if it works. Then have membership vote if it does. If they deem a proposal very important they can send it straight out for a vote. My understanding at least. So the BOD could tell me to pound sand. If that be the case then it is. At least I tried.

I do know that there is a proposal floating for NAMBA to update limited. Not sure what the status is. Not my yob.

Craig, we do have some guys that are still running cells they bought multiple years ago. Guys that are religious about storage voltage even if they are running again the next day. The problem isn't if the batteries are still good. It's who are you racing against. Sort of the nature of racing. Guys are always pushing and looking for an edge. Some buy brand new motors just for fresh bearings. Did that one year only to find the motors weren't as strong. ugh. I've seen guys replace all the bearings in their struts. Fresh flex cables in the spring all polished up so there is no decay. Machined polished drive dogs. Super competitive groups will have guys buying new batteries every season even if the old ones are still kicking. Looking for an extra percent of voltage. (me raising a guilty hand again) Or maybe the same voltage but the newest tech cells are lighter. That's happened multiple times.

I don't see a point where FE is going to be cheaper than the other fuels. Who knows though. Maybe if gas hits $100/gallon.

For a newer potential race, he needs to be able to buy a shelf boat and race it. Will he win? Maybe if he gets help but probably not. Tom and I talked about this the other day. There are almost ZERO forms of racing where a guys first time out he's winning. Whoop'n some veteran racers right out of the box. Doesn't happen. Not often.

Important thing is that the new guy is on the water, having a ton of fun, and learning along the way. Getting fast comes later.

[Doug Smock]

"More of a "race it and they will come" approach". Exactly!

1/8 Scale is what it is. Scales have to be registered in their district, don't see that changing for FE honestly. It takes five minutes, get over it. LOL

Craig I have some Hyperion 35C 5000s that are at least 7 years old, some 45c packs that are 5 or six. Wish I could buy more of those right now!! Not kidding.

Manufacturing is all over the place it seems. Take a particular brand, some guys swear by them, others wouldn't run the if they were given to them. Talking racers here.....Everyone is not experiencing pre mature battery failure. There will always be those guys that knock the bottom out of them. Some guys don't balance, store charge. I've seen a guy have to ice them down after his heats. These guys all know what they are doing, they'll tell you so. Same with ESCs and motors too, the guys that are cooking them know they are flirting with disaster. I guess that's part of the fun for them.

[CraigP]

Well that’s good news! I know my batteries get the kid glove treatment. Terry, again invoking some thought here... I’m not sure if you guys have tried this before, but you raise a great point about the “level” of competition. Have you thought about segmenting popular classes into points qualification? Meaning, you start in a rookie class, then earn finishing points which qualify you for higher experience classes. Kinda like coming up thru the smaller classes in APBA, full sized hydros. I know for me, the thought of running with you experienced guys seems like a joke, just providing cannon fodder to ya! But a rookie class would be attractive to me. Oscar (oscarel here) has been trying to get me to race. I told him I’d like for him to drive my boat, to see what it can do without rookie mistakes. I’m sure there are other rookies that feel the same way.

Another point, you guys form social alliances around those you’ve race with for a spell. This is natural and healthy. But it is difficult to “break into” an existing group. It’s just human nature guys... But a rookie class can allow a whole new group of people to make peer relationships, encouraging each other to get more involved, and forming their own social circle.

[T.S.Davis]

Same with ESCs and motors too, the guys that are cooking them know they are flirting with disaster.

Guilty again. Wouldn't call that part fun though.

Still proposing to drop registration Doug. There was no justification for it when it was written. There's no justification for it now. What, to pay for the district trophy? Trophy for what district races? Boat must compete within a year of registration........but......but...........but.... ..............there are no races. Bring your approved form to every race. "Form"? There's also no published list of scale boats that IMPBA is aware of. I asked. Soooooo.......why again? If I were going to register in MI it would take me more than 5 minutes to even figure out how. I'd be looking for this form for starters.

I'm having a flash back to around 2003 when NAMBA FE was doing things the way they did them because that's the way they always did them and will continue to do them. "Go buy some Nicd's and a 10 turn double and STFU mister."

[T.S.Davis]

Craig, that's what Mike was pointing out with our old SV class. I didn't give it enough credit. The beauty of that was that nobody really had an advantage. We raced the same everything. Right down to the batteries. The idea being that the playing field was even. Then it was all driving. In theory at least. It did work for a while. I think the new offerings on the market might have caused it's demise. Don't know exactly.

Something I will tell all of you about racing though. It's not like you think. There aren't little cliques of guys that only talk to each other and don't give a rats a$$ about the new guy. That's what's honestly kept me interested all these years. I used to think it was just FE that was like this but I've done a bunch of mixed events now and the "pull together" thing is a model boating thing. These guys that seem like they're all that.........they'll give you the shirt off their backs, the motor from their box, the prop off their boat. They'll share all the knowledge that you're willing and able to absorb. They want you to be successful. They want you to push them. When you finally actually beat them...............it's kinda thrilling.

A good friend of mine had RC experience but no boat experience. He showed up a number of times to check it out. Started asking what about this, that, the other. The club knew he was seriously interested but had to be budget minded with what he had going on at home. Between the gang we handed him enough gear to start racing with us. They didn't know him from Adam. Just some guy terry knows. BOOM! Brand new addict. He's got 2 boats now and is digging it. My point is........who does that? Not guys that want to just win win win race monkey a'holes.

Craig, if you're even thinking about playing boats just do it. You wont be sorry. I don't even care of you go nitro. Model boaters are good people. Even when we're wrong.

[CraigP]

I’m doing a 4s battery setup in my hydro right now, between checking out this great thread. Yes, I’m thinking about it, but my driving skills need to get to a point where I can run 65-70 down the straights and get enough balls to turn it and keep my finger on the throttle. I’m just a guy like the rest of you, I don’t want to get embarrassed. I’m pretty confident I’m not alone feeling that way...

I do have a Skater 32 I’m just finishing up. I would really like to race it! BTW, I know model boaters are good folks. I’m not trying to say anything negative, just pointing out that there is human psychology at play here. Helping on the beach is great, but driving is something else. It’s only natural to want to race your buddy, feel comfortable running next to him, like a matching pair of good ol’ shoes. That only comes thru experience and time.

Oh, I’ll never build another nitro boat! No way, no how! It’s FE for life, for me! You can take those stink pots!