Why is it that car brushless esc's can run at

[RCprince]

Take a Corvette engine out of a Corvette and place it in a boat and see if you get the same 200 miles and hour.

[deestingray]

Ok, how about if I put it this way.........

In the speed trial cars that are totally enclosed, even though they are running up to 6S, how many amps do they use doing it?? How long do they run?

One thing that I have found in cars, is that with the overheat protection, it will cut in after a few minutes of running on a hot motor with half throttle. That is what it is designed to do and it got hot because ultimately the esc is a resistor.
Boats are a completely different animal to cars, if you were to compare apples with apples, yeah you could probably simulate it to a point on a car by putting monster truck tyres on a tourer, adding 4S, hitting the trigger and seeing if your nice new mamba maxx controller blew or not. That is probably a bit excessive for an analogy but you get the picture.

As has already been suggested, unless you want to go and run a nice pretty scale boat, in FE you don't really have much need to back off (bar corners, rough seas) and feather the throttle which in turn lets the motor unload and you don't have to worry too much about blowing your esc due to massive amp spikes. Talk to most people about why their esc blew in their boat. I bet you could almost catagorize it by
A: too much prop
B: too many cells
C: ran it too long
D: faulty FET.

The comment of a hydra 240 only able to handle 140 amps. Question, was it a setup that constantly ran 140 amps? If so, was it taken into account that off a standing start, that 140 amp setup once the prop bites into the water now turns into sometimes well over 200 amps? Did the boat get out of control and take a dive, only to pop up vertically with the prop spinning at rull rpm? So many variables.

I will agree that I have read a lot more threads about faulty castle controllers, over the el cheapo mystery's but is it because they really are that bad or do people only write threads about them because they spent nearly 300 bucks on a controller and are a bit miffed that it hasn't performed like a $300 controller should? Who is to say that mystery controllers aren't just as bad or worse, it just doesn't get reported because one only spent 50 bucks on it and it is a throwaway item anyway.

You pay extra for the brand name because they can be fiddled with and are generally better quality parts, once again I will point out that because one can fiddle and change settings does that cause larger amp spikes? I think that bashing a particular product might be justified in some cases however I also think that having full programmability also brings the user into some of the equation of accountability.

[rockwerks]

Ok, how about if I put it this way.........

In the speed trial cars that are totally enclosed, even though they are running up to 6S, how many amps do they use doing it?? How long do they run?

One thing that I have found in cars, is that with the overheat protection, it will cut in after a few minutes of running on a hot motor with half throttle. That is what it is designed to do and it got hot because ultimately the esc is a resistor.
Boats are a completely different animal to cars, if you were to compare apples with apples, yeah you could probably simulate it to a point on a car by putting monster truck tyres on a tourer, adding 4S, hitting the trigger and seeing if your nice new mamba maxx controller blew or not. That is probably a bit excessive for an analogy but you get the picture.

As has already been suggested, unless you want to go and run a nice pretty scale boat, in FE you don't really have much need to back off (bar corners, rough seas) and feather the throttle which in turn lets the motor unload and you don't have to worry too much about blowing your esc due to massive amp spikes. Talk to most people about why their esc blew in their boat. I bet you could almost catagorize it by
A: too much prop
B: too many cells
C: ran it too long
D: faulty FET.

The comment of a hydra 240 only able to handle 140 amps. Question, was it a setup that constantly ran 140 amps? If so, was it taken into account that off a standing start, that 140 amp setup once the prop bites into the water now turns into sometimes well over 200 amps? Did the boat get out of control and take a dive, only to pop up vertically with the prop spinning at rull rpm? So many variables.

I will agree that I have read a lot more threads about faulty castle controllers, over the el cheapo mystery's but is it because they really are that bad or do people only write threads about them because they spent nearly 300 bucks on a controller and are a bit miffed that it hasn't performed like a $300 controller should? Who is to say that mystery controllers aren't just as bad or worse, it just doesn't get reported because one only spent 50 bucks on it and it is a throwaway item anyway.

You pay extra for the brand name because they can be fiddled with and are generally better quality parts, once again I will point out that because one can fiddle and change settings does that cause larger amp spikes? I think that bashing a particular product might be justified in some cases however I also think that having full programmability also brings the user into some of the equation of accountability.

Im not bashing castle but it is just a general of all boat esc's that they do not perform as well as car esc's and being able to feather throttle in an FE boat gives you much more control, yes 90% of the time we do run flat out, unless conditions are less than perfect, then being able to feather the throttle will give you faster lap times than nailing it then backing off. Control is what all RC is about

[deestingray]

I am hearing you man, I just needed typing practice. If I were to put it into 1 sentence instead of a novel, I would probably say that cars far outweigh boats in sales hence a lot more development, but one can also look at the point of being able to change your boats attitude by the setup. I personally don't think it is that critical in a surface setup because once that prop hooks up properly, you are at nearly max revs anyway and no amount of lovely looking throttle curve will make it go any better. In addition to that, I also reckon that just because any esc is rated to 200 amps or whatever, it doesn't mean that it should be run at max. I like the rule of a constant draw of around half the rated amperage, horses for courses and you gotta have some buffer. My 2 cents as they say...

[rockwerks]

I am hearing you man, I just needed typing practice. If I were to put it into 1 sentence instead of a novel, I would probably say that cars far outweigh boats in sales hence a lot more development, but one can also look at the point of being able to change your boats attitude by the setup. I personally don't think it is that critical in a surface setup because onces that prop hooks up properly, you are at nearly max revs anyway and no amount of lovely looking throttle curve will make it go any better. My 2 cents as they say.....

I just might have to put a max into a boat and see, of course Ill make a cooling plate for the heat sink first.

[J Solinger]

It would be interesting to see the statistical data in order of frequency on what parts of the esc are blowing. Just to see if it is a fet, driver, board trace, capacitor or what ever that has historicaly given us so much trouble. It may not have as much to do with amp draw as it does with something like voltage feeding back from the motor or something of this nature. I've seen esc's blow and burn down in so many different ways that I can't point to any one thing.

[Jeepers]

Well, I use a HYDRA 120 in my 1/8 scale truggy with NO COOLING and a 8XL on 4s2p. I have been messing with the throttle curve on the castle link but thats it, I recently ran a 15 minute heat with this setup, had more than enough power and run time to pass the competition, nitro guys didnt like the fact that I didnt have to pit. The esc did just fine at part throttle, full throttle just induced wheel spin!


just my 2 cents

[Mich. Maniac]

Well, I use a HYDRA 120 in my 1/8 scale truggy with NO COOLING and a 8XL on 4s2p. I have been messing with the throttle curve on the castle link but thats it, I recently ran a 15 minute heat with this setup, had more than enough power and run time to pass the competition, nitro guys didnt like the fact that I didnt have to pit. The esc did just fine at part throttle, full throttle just induced wheel spin!


just my 2 cents

Thats great to hear! Very efficiant on and in a truck. I just wonder what amp draw is even in that size car?

My only analogy I can think of is.... Anyone tried pushing a car on the street? Now think about swimming a 20' boat to shore? Quite a difference even though both are difficult you are waisting soo much evergy in the water.

[Jadogg]

Ok im a newbie, and I dont have alot of experience with boats as much as cars. However, I have a few boats and I am biulding a delta force 33 right now. I will have to agree with some points given by rockwerks. I agree that the developing of a better ESC that has very nice features like thermal protection and a smooth throttle curve, programability and even reverse polarity are good things to have. Yes these things may drive the price up at first, but like a new PS3 a year ago or a new HD LCD tv 5 years ago. The price will go down and the product will get better.

BTW i hate hearing the fact of accepting that you should keep some kind of a buffer zone on Hydra ECS's. they should be designed to handle more than what they are rated for and we should not have to create a buffer ourselves. i have been reading threads on CC Hydra 120 and 240 running 6s or 18-20 cells. People saying things like "you shouldnt max it out" and "create a margin of error". To me like any other good product. What the manufacturer promises is what you should get.

Ex: A Hydra 120 should be able to handle the promised 25 volts and 120 amps, and if you dont max that out and the ECS blows, they shoud be liable.

That ESC should be tested and developed at more than 25 volts and well over 120 amps. Sorry if you disagree, but thats an engineers opinion. When you biuld a bridge or put a rating on a tow rope. You biuld in that margin of error. It makes for a superior product. That will exceed your expectations.

[ozzie-crawl]

i do agree to a point were it would be nice to be able to buy a esc that will take its stated rateing but to compair it with car motors is a bit of. if you go back acouple of years were rc cars were running brushed motors a lot had a turn limit. EG.12 turn limit. how many people burnt up there esc running 12 turn motors i would say a lot. and when people say they had a 60 amp esc and were only pulling 40 amps and it blew were are they getting the 40 amp reading from are they going by the manufacturers rateing or have they tested the amp draw. i bet a lot of people would be suprised if they put a data logger in there boat and seen the amp draw and some of the spikes the esc sees

[azjc]

I have just recently gotten into boats moving from the Rc MTs and one thing I have noticed in a lot of FE setups it is prefered to use lower turn motors with lower voltage( the cheaper way to develop power) and this causes higher amp draw. In my MT setups my way of thinking has been the opposite to get more of my power using higher voltage/ lower kv motors. this causes the setup to draw less amps (making less heat) and increase runtime

[ice_spy]

I AM NOT THE ONLY 1 !!. Thank you ROCKWERKS.

I too have moved from FE cars to FE boats. I TOTALLY AGREE with you Rockwerks. All these people bag you out because they are the ones to me that seem to have no experience with car top end esc's to compare to thier boat esc's. Yes you are right, the day of an 'on-off' switch, then ceramic resitors with 3-step mechanical speed controllers.......Dont anybody tell me they havent heard of these. Then progression from fully electronic esc's to the latest design Moffet 1 button push set up progammable esc's.
WHERE IS THE ONE PUSH BUTTON!!!! trying to programm with a controller is like listening to piano lessons. I have not tryed the cards. But my point is.. this sucks. it is not easy as a simple button with flashing LED. Dont anybody say water proofing switch would be an issue.
**** Look at M-troniks 100% water proof BOAT esc's that ARE SMOOTHER!!!!!!!!
Ok high amps and draw may have something to do with a severe lack of progessive throttle curve for high end boat esc's.
The soft/hard start is a joke to me. Maybe something for motor obstuction protection as suggested. But really, i think NO EXCUSE, we must be accepting a lack of devolopment for smoother curve boat esc's. Reverse protection and other features are added benifets, but when i have a boat that BARREL ROLLS because i CANT apply full power SMOOTHLY/SLOWLY/PROGRESSIVELY!!! in my micro cat, it results in flip and me going for a swim. This is crap and to me an area that could use some devolpment. For a rec. sport user these boat/plane esc's totally SUCK! in my opion.
For racing, im yet to try, but im sure with practice 'feathering' to get around the lack of throttle increments can be mastered, and as people have said also, your basicly running flat out anyways.
However I still think for modern electronics that CAR esc's make boat/plane esc's look like they belong in the 80's.
I have tryed a NOVAK GTX brushed esc in a F1 tunnel with a aquacraft EP1 outboard, running a 10x3 brushed motor....IT flipped it was so powerfull. All other esc's i tested were NO COMPARISON. If the novak could handle the high temps/constant high amp draw they would make an very powerfull boat esc. I used these esc's with racing standard motor 540 1/10 touring cars, if you didnt have a novak gtx, you were not as competitive.
As said, im starting out with FE boats, and even the 30amp esc's as suggested are crap. they make my micro boat difficult to drive, apply smooth power and take from the enjoyment of driving my boat.. Its like you have nothing......squeeze.....squeeze some more ......then BBBBAAAAAAMMMMM!! the bloody thing hits boost.
You can all shoot me to pieces, but at the end of the day Rockworks and my point is valid and it is not from lack of experience, You all may be happy with your RC-ing componets, but clearly no one here can give a clear answer as to why the esc's throttle curves are so different.
Another point i must add, is that maybe the devopment in BRUSHLESS esc's for boats is just as new as the cars brushless esc's. The M-troniks and Novak esc's i talk of above are both brushed. Clearly you can not drive an rc car with non smooth progessive throttle curve, it would result in wheel spin and or loss of control. remeber how crappy the old 3-steps were in our old rc cars.
With a real boat, i find in real appications that i do feather the throttle on off with wave chop and conditions, and prop slip is accepted under sudden 'boost' bursts of throttle. Lower cost sport electric Boats like the ABC Typhoon today still come out of the factory with an on off micro switch or 3 step MEC esc's. As maybe suggested this is all that is needed, and therefor not devolped. my 10cents worth!

[Diegoboy]

This is a Great thread. Excellent example of open discussion without the emotions & tempers. I loved reading this one and want more.

FYI I agree with rockwerks too!

[NorthernBoater]

Ok im a newbie, and I dont have alot of experience with boats as much as cars. However, I have a few boats and I am biulding a delta force 33 right now. I will have to agree with some points given by rockwerks. I agree that the developing of a better ESC that has very nice features like thermal protection and a smooth throttle curve, programability and even reverse polarity are good things to have. Yes these things may drive the price up at first, but like a new PS3 a year ago or a new HD LCD tv 5 years ago. The price will go down and the product will get better.

BTW i hate hearing the fact of accepting that you should keep some kind of a buffer zone on Hydra ECS's. they should be designed to handle more than what they are rated for and we should not have to create a buffer ourselves. i have been reading threads on CC Hydra 120 and 240 running 6s or 18-20 cells. People saying things like "you shouldnt max it out" and "create a margin of error". To me like any other good product. What the manufacturer promises is what you should get.

Ex: A Hydra 120 should be able to handle the promised 25 volts and 120 amps, and if you dont max that out and the ECS blows, they shoud be liable.

That ESC should be tested and developed at more than 25 volts and well over 120 amps. Sorry if you disagree, but thats an engineers opinion. When you biuld a bridge or put a rating on a tow rope. You biuld in that margin of error. It makes for a superior product. That will exceed your expectations.

I know this has been stated before but really what we need for specs of the ESC is a max voltage, current and wattage. Running 120 amps at 6s is going to generate a lot more heat than running 120 amps running at 3s.

[ice_spy]

Im going to put my queries to some top end brushless boat esc manifactures. Ask them why they dont have smoother progression throttle increments, and an easy push button set up.