Intro and seeking input

[richinspirit]

Hello,

Recently signed up, as I am looking for an experienced FE community to participate in, and this seems to be it.

I got a Traxxas Villain IV back in the early 90's ('92, IIRC) and used it for a while then, again around '03, and recently pulled it out of storage as we have been going through and getting rid of our storage unit.

The whole time I've had it, I've wanted to upgrade the props, motors, and add water cooling... Just pulled the trigger on all that after more than 20 years...

Now the old Villain has - a pair of 13-turn doubles (brushed), upgraded prop shafts, the original bushings, newly installed water cooling, and Graupner K-series 45mm carbon props. I think my post-count is too low to post pictures, or I would.

Just got my first run in today at the river after charging the battery 36 hours prior for testing, and after the battery was run down, I brought it in to find the motor temps were great, the ESC has a fan on it and didn't seem warm, but the NIMH 6-cell 5000MAH pack was too hot to touch for more than a couple seconds.

Wow, that battery pack was HOT. Never run into that, before.

Is that kind of pack temp to be expected, you think?

EDIT: Another question: It had an interesting tendency to "spin out" and end up shooting backwards in the water when I would oversteer... much preferable to "flipping over" as a response to over steering it, obviously. However, is this the kind of thing a turn fin or two would help me out with by sharpening the turning response/radius at speed, or would it just end up flipping the boat over?
/EDIT

And once again, hello and looking forward to working my way up from this Villain to become part of an experienced group of FE boaters.

-Jon

[lenny]

Hi,
How many minutes did you run it for with that 5000mah pack ?

As for pictures, They need to be on your pc and than added to a post.
Using the third icon from the right ,
And to add video's use the second icon from the right and add the you tube url code.

[richinspirit]

Well, the pack charged to 4650MAH, then was used for extensive bathtub testing for water-tightness of the newly installed cooling-system tubing (and for the general fun of it, 3"-deep whirlpools between the props were especially cool), and I didn't keep a close tab on the runtime at the river...

...but if I had to guess, I'd say the river runtime was between 5 and 7 minutes with the last 60-seconds or so very degraded in speed - due to low battery voltage I would think.

EDIT: Hoping you might have some input on the newly edited-in question in my original post about turning performance and tuning options.

[NativePaul]

That battery temperature sounds lower than I would have thought for that setup, frankly I am surprised they didn't explode. I used to run 12 double and 16 tripple motors geared down 2:1 spinning a 42mm prop which pulled 40A and 30A respectively on 7cells, in your favour you are only on 6 cells, but that is still trying to spin a 45mm prop about twice the speed that I spun a 42mm with the geared 16x3, I would guess that your motors are trying to pull well over 100Amps each and it is only because your battery is not capable of giving that much current and roasting itself that has saved your motors and/or ESC/ESCs from melting.

What size drive shafts did you fit, M4 threaded or 3/16"? If it is M4 try 33mm props and if it is 3/16 get as small as you can as I don't think they go down that far.

[lenny]

What did the pack take in mah this time when you charged it back up ?
Also where you running the boat at top speeds most of the run the last time out ?

For tuning I would need to see some pictures of the boat, And also as RTR and where the cell is setting in the boat.

Also any video's of it running left to right in a long run to see how it is riding and getting on plane to.

I would cut the run time for that pack down to 4 minutes and bring it in and check the temps,
Than charge the pack and see how many mah it takes.
I would try to keep 1000mah in the pack after a full 4 minute run and that should keep the temps down on it.

Also something that may help with the setup to run happier is putting 5.5 bullet connectors on the whole setup.

[richinspirit]

@NP: It has an M4 drive-shafts in the hull, but now has 3/16ths prop shafts in the steerable outdrives, and is geared down at 2:1 with a MFG motor rating (no-load) of 31,000RPM. I am sure the actual rotation speed of the prop shafts under load is well-below the 15,500RPM theoretical no-load output. I am getting a radio system with available RPM telemetry, so I may try to capture that for each drive assembly at some point in the future. More interested in capturing temps at the moment.

@lenny: Haven't gotten home yet, so haven't charged it back up. Wasn't wide-open the whole time, no. Wasn't sure if the water cooling would stay water-tight when pressurized by full speed.

The run was along the lines of 60-seconds full out, then a few drag-starts to get a feel for time to get on-plane, then stop it near shore to check the height in the water /confirm it hadn't taken on serious amounts of water, then 60-seconds at full throttle again, followed by a quick bit of trolling around at 15% throttle, then check height in the water again - that kind of thing until it ran out of juice in fairly short order (subjectively). It really was a decent run-time - all things considered.

I have multiple 6500MAH 70C 2s lipo packs, and there are accommodations for twin 6/7 cell NiCad battery-packs-of-yore in the hull. Thinking I won't be running it w/ 13 Amp/Hours of 2s lipo any time, soon. Maybe someday though.

FWIW: I thought the Castle Sidewinder 3 ESC handled it all like a champ.

[richinspirit]

OK, lenny... I have a few pics. Let me know what else you need, pic wise, to offer additional advice. No videos I don't think 'till it calms down a bit at work. I hope that isn't too soon however, as more money is always helpful around the holidays.

This shot is the interior RTR, except the 6-cell NIMH pack I have used so far is not present. It usually resides in the battery pack slot right next to the motors, spanning the entire beam in that location, and the battery pack slot closer to the bow is currently unused. When I try dual 6500MAH 2s 70c lipos in parallel both will be filled, but not before If it is helpful in combination with some other change, I can always move the battery pack forward into the other slot. Each slot is indicated by a pair of black foam-rubber squares in this image. The installed battery, or batteries, are secured by original-equipment Velcro straps. High-end Traxxas goodness. lol
Villain_Interior.jpg



This a prop detail shot taken from a bit below the level of the boat, with the boat also leaning over away from the camera to better show the port-side combo inlet/outlet, plus to keep the foreground prop from blocking view of the background prop:
Villain_Prop_Detail.jpg



...and included the requisite 'glamour shot on a bed' of this 21-year-old (lol). It is just at an age to drink now - w/ only one owner, me. May not look it here, but exposed surfaces of the ABS are really starting to "yellow", and some of the glue-points on those "chrome rails" have been redone >15 times with medium CA glue, but at least the rails are still hanging in there...
Villain_Exterior.jpg

And thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Fluid]

Your packs just can't keep up with the motor amp draw. Running any packs - NiMH or LiPo - all the way down can lead to high cell temperatures. The motors were not drawing that much individually, but together they over-taxed the cells. Even a total of 50 amp draw on cheap cells will cause them to get hot when run for 5-7 minutes. The solution is either to shorten run time as mentioned above, or to get better packs.

With brushless motors running a lot of part throttle is hard on the ESC, but less so with brushed motors. The low ESC temps indicates you didn't cause problems by the way you drove.

Spinning out is caused by the newly increased speed and the steerable outdrives. Former club members ran into this same problem with steerable outdrive hulls back in the 1980s. Adding fins etc. didn't help much, severely limiting the amount of steering was the only thing which helped. But that limits how tight you can turn the boat. This is just the nature of the beast and has been for decades. The total solution is to lock the outdrives and use a rudder.


.

[richinspirit]

...Running any packs - NiMH or LiPo - all the way down can lead to high cell temperatures...

...Spinning out is caused by the newly increased speed and the steerable outdrives. Former club members ran into this same problem with steerable outdrive hulls back in the 1980s. Adding fins etc. didn't help much, severely limiting the amount of steering was the only thing which helped. But that limits how tight you can turn the boat. This is just the nature of the beast and has been for decades. The total solution is to lock the outdrives and use a rudder..

I forgot about that with the battery packs, thanks. I always discharge to 6v, then charge, and the pack was so discharged the voltage instantly got down to 5.34V when the discharge cycle started before the 6V limiter kicked in and and called it. Wow. That probably did it. I'll do the "run for 4 min and check temps", and I bet things are very different. Thank you for the reminder.

As far as making a call on the spinning out vs moving to a rudder, it always helps me to compare "failure modes" when deciding between different systems... what would the boat do if I oversteered it with a rudder?

[lenny]

I think it would turn very sharply if not on the dime,
Like I said before I need see some video's of it running.
Hear some links to some past build mods of that boat,
I have hull just like yours that I am going to make a single brushless setup in some day.

This guy Make-a-wake loved modding these boat a lot,
Also take a look in his you tube video's for more fun with this boat.

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...hlight=villain
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...hlight=villain
http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...ork-in-the-vid!

[richinspirit]

So, used one of my 6500MAH 70c 2s lipo packs in this boat about a week ago. Speed went up a little, not a lot but was definitely noticeable. Also, for that same run, was using installed telemetry on each motor's temp, the ESC temp, and main battery voltage.

Quit the run after 3800MAH capacity use, because the motor end-bell temp on one motor (next to one of the brushes) was 205 degrees F, and the other was 172 degrees F after some trolling and intermittent high-speed runs.

Need to gear down and potentially remove timing. I reversed rotation of one of the motors by just rotating the end bell by 180 degrees, and believe that is causing much of the >30-degree temperature difference between motors. Anyone have any helpful comments regarding this particular aspect?

Now have a second Castle Sidewinder3 ESC and going to pick up a pair of cheap ~7000KV brushless 3650's and try that, because when under full speed, these brushed motors heat up at greater than 2-degrees a second... it is scary how fast they get up there, even with a water cooling setup. I stopped at 205 degrees on the one motor, but it was still very interested in climbing even higher.

I'll see how it goes with a brushless solution, and meanwhile enjoy responsibly with the brushed setup using the motor temp telemetry to keep things somewhat safe.

Thanks again, everyone.

[gsbuickman]

Hiya , welcome to OSE ...

I am old skool myself & I love the vintage traxxas villain iv. Here's a link to my recent villain iv build.

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...lain-X-sleeper

I agree with Paul, Fluid and Lenny, they're real knowlegable fellows so I am not going to rehash everything they've already said. the "Hot" props for the Villain's are the counter rotating X447's.

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...?prod=oct-x447

You can free up resistance in your driveshafts and out drives by pulling out the stock drive tubes and all your oilite bushings, and installing new oversize driveshaft tubes and installing 8 new 4x8x3mm bearings in the new tubes & outdrives. The installation is in my build thread.

Villains are fun when their fast, but there is such a thing as too fast, I think that's right around or over 55 miles an hour, and that's really pushing it. I love the way villains handle and i love the trouph they dig when you snap a hard turn, but when your traveling too fast and you try a hard turn, you lose it and flip out of control.

They do make turn fins specially designed for the Villain, but I've never needed or used them. however the villain I just got done building might be the exception to the rule. it might be flast enough now I'll have to run it as a straight line drag boat.

There are 2 ways you can turn your outdrives, counter rotating to the inside and the outside. when the props spin to the iside you get a faster top end speed, but handling suffers. When they spin to the outside, you get much better handling....

[gsbuickman]

Lenny is right about Make-a-wake, that crazy fool is the resident Villain nut. Don't waste your $ on twin 7000kv motors, the villain will Never handle it, Ever... Read male-a-wakes "wolf in sheeps clothing" boat build.

I ran a pair of 19t speed gems arconites, with 47mm X447's on 3s lipo & that thing was faster than my pals brushless pro-boat apache on 4s. That was impressive. The Hot motors that a lot of guys run, are the newq motors from the emaxx or the new villain ex with 447 props on 4s.

On my Villain X build, I've taken it even further. I wanted brushed motors that were faster but had more torque than than the emaxx motors to drive the props faster w/o overheating from the load. I went with the hpi gt-550 motors.

They are pretty awesome motors.& would let my 1/8th scale e-savage do backflips at the squeeze of the throttle. They are 550 watt 19t 1400kv torque monsters on 40c 4s. I am running bearing supported drives & outdrives with X447's and stock 28t/14t gearing and its smokin' fast. The only way I can make a sharp turn is to drop to half throttle before I make my turn & accelerate pulling out of It. My outdrives are all the way down too. The higher you raise the props, the less bite you have and the higher the nose of the boat rides until the boat "bobs or porpise's" up and down rather than plaining smoothly. Villains always seem to ride nose high to begin with and prefer deeper running props for faster speeds....

[richinspirit]

Just installed ball-bearings in the outdrives after drilling out the outdrives.

Also, planning to order Graupner K-Series 51mm props, since mine are getting a bit ragged from traveling with me for work, and the normal-rotation 45mm ones are out of stock. Will order on Monday after they are back from vacation (will order the reverse rotation 45mm that is in stock, too). Can't wait to see how extensively the 51mm props heat up these brushed motors, and how fast the boat is while they do so... :)

Currently about a city block from the Columbia river on business, and plan to use the boat on the river here in the next few days... for sure on the weekend. Will try bringing someone who can take a couple vids and post them for me, so I can get some feedback from everyone.

Haven't ordered brushless motors yet...
...any other brushless recommendations - based on keeping the 2:1 gear reduction and the use of two Castle Sidewinder3 sensorless controllers?

Thanks, everyone.

[gsbuickman]

Rather than blowing $ on 51mm props because your current props are wore down, pick up a set of Octura x452's or x447's. They are both 47mm x 1.4 pitch = 2.590". 51mm props are too big for the villain hull, it was never designed for that kind of power. Now that you've got 4x8x3mm bearings in the outdrives, you can upgrade to larger drive tubes with bearing supported driveshafts. The stock driveshafts run oilite bushings too.
Here's my villain build so you can see the driveshaft upgrade:

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...lain-X-sleeper

As far as brushless motors go, keep it sensible. 1800kv mills will be plenty. On a villain, if you think she'll handle more speed you don't need faster motors, just go with larger pinion gears ie: 14t , 15t, 16t, 17t, 18t.........