Namba 1/8 Rule Changes

[Steven Vaccaro]

Thoughts on the new rules change?

Title "Electric, Rule E.6 ? 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE."

ATTACHMENT1 | ATTACHMENT2

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Proposal ? Modification to Section 28 ? Electric, Rule E.6 ? 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE.

Reasoning:
The 2018 rule change incorporated several technical values that were not physically measurable without destructive testing, using equipment that is not in normal circulation. With the rule change these specifications are removed.
Much like P-ltd, the motor list has already had at least one of three listed options go out of production. The motor list is replaced with a dimensional limit and testable kV limit.
The change establishes an inspection process to regulate motor performance that is not cumbersome or intrusive.
The end result is an enforceable rule set that will not need to be readdressed in the near future, and again allow 1/8 scale FE to be run as an official national class eligible for
records. Motor Tech form to follow if rule passes. To be supplied by FE chair
Current (areas in bold will be deleted if rule passes):

E. SPECIALITY CLASSES
4.
5.
6. ELECTRIC 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE
a. General Rules
i) Electric Scale Unlimited Hydroplane rules will follow the Scale Unlimited Hydroplane rules (see Section 21) with the exception of the following:
ii) Electric Scale Unlimited Hydroplane rules are intended as a supplement to the Electric general rules. In the case of a conflict with the Scale
Unlimited Hydroplane rules (see Section 21), the Electric rules will prevail.
b. Power Specifications
i) Approved Motors
(a) NEU 1527 1.5Y 850KV
(b) HET Typhoon 700-98 840KV
(c) Turnigy SK3-3994 850KV
ii) Twin motors are not allowed.
c. Drivetrain Specifications
i) Either a cable or hard shafts may be used, no gear boxes allowed.
ii) Any propeller may be used up to maximum of 57mm in diameter.
d. Electronic Speed Controls (ESC)
i) Any ESC may be used as long as it is rated to a minimum 130 Amps and rated to handle a minimum of 8S battery configuration.
ii) Anti-spark resistors are advised on all speed controllers.
e. Batteries
i) A maximum capacity of 8S Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries are allowed. The maximum mAh capacity of the battery pack(s) will not exceed
6000 mAh. Only LiPo batteries with a cell rating of 4.20 or less volts per cell are allowed.
ii) LiHV batteries with per cell capacities to 4.35 volts or higher are not allowed.
iii) Manufacturer?s minimum discharge of 30C constant but no higher than 65C constant is allowed.

Proposed (areas in bold are new additions if rule passes):
E. SPECIALITY CLASSES
6. ELECTRIC 1/8 SCALE UNLIMITED HYDROPLANE
a. General Rules
i) Electric Scale Unlimited Hydroplane rules will follow the Scale Unlimited Hydroplane rules (see Section 21) with the exception of the following:
ii) Electric Scale Unlimited Hydroplane rules are intended as a supplement to the Electric general rules. In the case of a conflict with the Scale
Unlimited Hydroplane rules (see Section 21), the Electric rules will prevail.
b. Power Specifications
i) Motors shall not exceed the manufacturer?s kV rating of 860 kV (950kV breakout threshold).
ii) Motors may not have a motor case exceeding the following dimensions, including any bearing protrusions:
(a) Length: 105 mm (4.134 in.)
(b) Diameter: 42 mm (1.654 in.)
iii) Motors without permanently marked factory kV rating will undergo technical inspection to verify rule compliance.
iv) Twin motors are not allowed.
c. Drivetrain Specifications
i) No gear boxes allowed.
ii) Any propeller may be used up to maximum of 57mm in diameter.
d. Batteries
i) A maximum capacity of 8S Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries are allowed. Only LiPo batteries with a cell rating of 4.20 or less volts per cell are
allowed.
ii) LiHV batteries with per cell capacities to 4.35 volts or higher are not allowed.
e. Motor kV inspection procedure and formulas
i) The following formula will be used to determine a brushless motor kV output.
k𝑉 = (120f/p)/(1.343&#119881
Variable definitions:
𝑓 = frequency of the motor, as measured in hertz (Hz)
𝑝 = number of poles in the motor
𝑉 = voltage measured across the motor, as measured in volts (V)
ii) It is recognized that identical technical inspections of FE motors can provide different results for two or more identically represented
motors. Because of this, 950 kV is the ?may not exceed? kV output value.
iii) Technical Testing Process for Determining a Brushless Motor KV Output:
(a) Tools/motor information/KV formula needed for testing:
(i) Drill motor capable of at least 1200 RPM.
(ii) Multimeter with frequency-checking capability.
(iii) Number of poles on the motor to be tested (I.E., 2, 4, 6).
(iv) Formula as stated in rule E.6.e.i in this section.
(b) Testing motor KV output:
(i) Attach the multimeter leads to any 2 of the 3 wires extending from the motor.
(ii) Connect the motor shaft to the drill motor chuck. This can be done by removing the motor from the boat and directly
attaching the drill chuck to the motor shaft. If the motor is still in the boat, remove the propeller and attach the drill
chuck to the stub shaft/cable driveline.
(iii) Set the multimeter to ?Frequency? mode and spin the motor with the drill until the reading is shown. Record the
frequency.
(iv) Set the multimeter to ?Voltage? mode and spin the motor with the drill until the reading is shown. Record the voltage.
(v) Plug the f, p and V values into the equation provided (28.E.6.e.i). The result is the motor?s KV output.

[pescador]

I?m not super thrilled, I stocked up on 5s packs [emoji12]. Personally I think a motor with the kv?s for 10s shouldn?t have to be used on 8s just to slow the class down? Flame suit on [emoji91]lol.


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[Steven Vaccaro]

I?m not super thrilled, I stocked up on 5s packs [emoji12]. Personally I think a motor with the kv?s for 10s shouldn?t have to be used on 8s just to slow the class down? Flame suit on [emoji91]lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It will be interesting to see how this all shacks out.

[Fluid]

The specified motors have not changed for several years, I haven?t heard a lot of complaining recently. The new motor specs are pretty much the same but allow more potential motors to be used - the changes kinda mirror what happened in Limited. I?m not sure why the complaints when almost nothing really changed....




.

[T.S.Davis]

1/8 FE will always struggle because the two major US organizations flip the proverbial bird to each other. Each knows best. Although.....I do wonder about IMPBA scale. Has anyone seen a heat of that lately? Last one I saw was 2018 I think. Maybe at the CanAm. Somebody has to be doing it out there.

The new rules are pretty similar to before. This new size limit opens it up a bit. Hey, they did manage to keep out the 4070 TP motors so I guess they have that going for them. Ditched the mah and C rate restrictions so that's easier.

I argued to go back to 10s with a size limit. That's something IMPBA might at least consider too. A mid point between them where each is currently. Seemed reasonable. Got crickets. The rule will pass so learn to like it.

[raptor347]

The proposal fixes the enforcement problems with the rule that passed 3 years ago.

From a performance standpoint, if you go back and look at the fast times from nationals the only outlier is 2017. The rest are all in the 1:26-1:27 second range. I won 2012 with 8S at 1:27, Pags won 2014 on 10S at 1:26.

The 8S boats will run in the low-mid 60mph range if well tuned (possibly faster, we'll see). 10S allows you to build a 70+ mph 1/8 scale if you know what you're doing, or get a pig on plane.

[eric113]

They also did away with Mah restrictions. Wish they also did away with 4.20 per cell restrictions. Just let us run HV packs.

[Peter A]

Hey, they did manage to keep out the 4070 TP motors so I guess they have that going for them.

The TP 4070 is only 100mm long so it still qualifies doesn't it?

Why couldn't the motor just be tested with a kv tester instead of what looks like a complicated process?

Why are the 1/8 scales only 8s and not up to 10? Is it purely to keep speeds at a realistic level?

I know I am not in the US, but we are trying to build up the 1/8 class in NZ here so I am interested in what is happening. Currently we have a 10s, 10,000mah limit, but with little happening for many years with scales, there has been no way to prove or make any changes to anything.
Currently I am in the process of converting a nitro Albert Lee to electric. I picked up a brand new SK8 a couple of years ago so am using that. As there is no room for more than 10s 5000 mah batt setup, I am going to start with a ZTW HV 150A esc. On 8s, an advantage would be being able to use the ZTW 200A esc. I need to progress the work on the boat for now though.

[T.S.Davis]

The TP 4070 is only 100mm long so it still qualifies doesn't it?

107.6mm

There aren't a ton of scales here in the states. Debatable why that is. The largest deterrent might be the lack of plug-n-play scales. Guys drawn to electric tend to be "gotta have it right now" types. There are exceptions of course but many want to purchase today and drop a GPS in tomorrow...wahoooooo! Scale requires more dedication than that. There are also two major racing organizations that don't consult each other.

NAMBA was:
8s
motor list
prop size limit
mah limit
ESC minimum requirement
no hull registration

IMPBA is
10s
Different motor list
No prop limit
No mah limit
Drive dog location requirement
Must register hull

The new NAMBA set does clean up the last version but still ignores IMPBA racers. In fairness........there ain't too many IMPBA scale guys.
At least with this new NAMBA set you "could" cross over between organizations provided your motor choice landed within the new motor limits AND just happens to be on the IMPBA motor list. In other words if you run in both organizations there is ONE motor. You need a Neu 1527 1.5y, maybe 2 sets of batteries, and a couple props.

Why FE racing with it's virtually non existent participation numbers has different rules for each organization will continue to be one of earths great mysteries.

Brian, you say the times for your 8s and PAG's 10s boats were less than a second apart but then say that the 10s will run 10mph faster. Aren't the times the times? 10mph gained Mikey one second? Maybe that's about right. Never thought about the math.

[raptor347]

I said "10S allows you to build a 70+ mph 1/8 scale". You've got to build the boat specifically to run those speeds. Most if not all the current running FE 1/8 scales are using hulls designed for nitro, geometry needs some tweaking to get that much performance out of it. Mikes boat was fast, but wouldn't stick lane 1. Lane one gets tougher the heavier they get. My goal for the new boat is under 10 pounds ready to hit the water.

[jaike5]

If it a'nt broke don't fix it! This is a fine example of exclusion. Unless I want to refit two 1/8th scales to race.

[Fluid]

If it a'nt broke don't fix it! This is a fine example of exclusion. Unless I want to refit two 1/8th scales to race.

Actually the “new” rules are more inclusive since they do not specify a particular motor as the old rules did. No point in mentioning the two organization’s differences, that goes way beyond just 1/8th scale boats. Hey, at least there aren’t three different organizations like in the last century - NAMBA, IMPBA and APBA.


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[NativePaul]

As an outsider looking in, including bearing protrusions in the motor length seems like it makes teching too hard, as you will have to remove motors to check the overall length, if bearing protrusions weren't included you could easily measure the can length whilst the motors are in situ.

Maybe I am not seeing something because all our classes in the Naviga world are "any motor"; or maybe I am unusual in that I have boats for 8 classes, yet to avoid stress I only run 2-3 classes on a 1 day race or 3-4 classes on a 2 day race, but if we had a class that I had to remove the motor for teching, I would save myself some stress and run another class instead.

Here in the UK we have proven that single motor classes work, both back in the brushed days with the Graupner 700BB Turbo and brushless with the Mega 22/30/2. As long as you pic the motor from an reputable motor manufacturer (rather than the trap you seem to have fallen into, of picking motors from RTR companies that will swap motors to maximise profit at the drop of a hat), it is all golden, I don't see a big issue in the Neu 1527 being the only legal motor. I don't foresee Neu going under any time soon and even if they do it is not a huge issue to allow an equivalent performing motor at a later date.

[longballlumber]

Don't forget the IMPBA released this in 2018.

https://secureservercdn.net/104.238.68.196/e0d.48a.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/FE-1-8-Scale-Tech-Notice-RevB.pdf

[jaike5]

The new NAMBA rules are only inclusive from this point in time forward. Racers from the past ten or fifteen years are excluded. With no registration you could run a shingle with a tupper ware tower and call it 1/8th scale.