Mah resitrictions

[Doug Smock]

Thanks for posting Paul.

[T.S.Davis]

The length limits work. As far as I can tell at least. I can throw a ton of power in the water with a P mono but I can't finish with it to save my life. I've tried.

Jay, you keep coming back to an "advantage" a 12k offshore racer would have over a 10k racer. The discussion isn't about giving anyone an advantage. It's about potentially changing a rule for all. We would all have the same options. Right now it's 10k for Q and under. The bummer there is that very frequently the Q offshore boats run with the S/T offshore boats. So you're handicapped with a Q. If the limit was 12k we would all do that. If it's 100000000000000k then the length limits are THE limits. That's my thinking at least. A can build a 6000 watt P mono but it wont make it to the first turn with it only being 34" long.

This is kind of the premise under which IMPBA is currently operating. The results I've asked about a couple times seem to indicate that their rules not having capacity limits is of little relevance because they do have the length limits in place.

This whole discussion is likely premature. Sorry guys. The time to address it is likely during the next chem change that we are seeing more and more of. HV is likely the next gen and we'll revisit capacities then. I predict at least.

[Doug Smock]

Premature? I don't thin so Lucy?

Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

[Doby]

Premature? I don't thin so Lucy?

Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

How would you confirm the capacity without fully discharging and re-charging?

[Doug Smock]

How would you confirm the capacity without fully discharging and re-charging?

The same way it's not being done now.

[Doby]

Simple Solution:

At this years Mich Cup Race...prior to every heat....

#1) Racers charge up their packs.

#2) Terry runs around with a volt meter and checks all packs to be used in the heat.

#3) Terry then watches every racer discharge their packs on a certified charger (that either the club supplies each racer, or each racer has to provide) Documentation as to the accuracy of the certified chargers must be of course provided from a certified calibration facility, approved by NAMBA, but left open to IMPBA members personal choice.

#4) Terry then watches every racer charge their packs on the same charger as listed in #3.

#5) Terry then records the actual capacity of the racers packs.

#6) Terry then records the actual voltage of the racers packs.

#7) Terry then certifies the racers individual packs and quarantines them for use throughout the event by the racer.

#8) Terry then repeats #2 through #7 for all packs used by all racers in all heats.

This results in:

#9) Terry, at the end of the 3 weeks of racing (#2 through #8 will not happen in a 3 day event) checks himself in to a local AA meeting for some much needed therapy.

#10) Terry's wife leaves him....her only reason given is "REALLY??" after he tries to explain the logic of all of this.

#11) Terry's club switches from NAMBA to IMPBA, his only reason given to his other club members is "REALLY??"

#12) No-one shows up to race at the 2017 Cup...only reason given is "REALLY??"

#13) Everyone sells their boats, buys airplanes and lives happily ever after...except for Terry....he's curled up in the fetal position, sucking his thumb, repeating "Really??", over and over...................all while hugging his favorite FE boat.....a puddle of drool on the floor gradually grows larger and larger after the days pass by...

[B Neal]

Hypotheticals really don't do this thread justice with all the good info stated here.

Facts are impba has no limits, namba is on the honor system, naviga is on the weight system.

Impba = path of least resistance no way to believe or assume a racer has an advantage

Namba = path with transistor, possible assumptions a racer is breaking a rule gaining advantage

Naviga = path of most resistance, from Paul's post, scary safety posibilities trying to reduce battery weight attempting to gain advantage.

With all that said if I could in some cases run more Mah I would.

Namba racers that are not honoring the rule / guideline / Mfg advertised Mah is just fooling themselves and wasting this earths air supply.

Either Namba goes no restriction, or weight limit to allow the heaviest of heaviest cells (wait for all mfg'ers to start producing HV cells for proper weight numbers) or leave it be.

My thoughts
Brian

[rayzerdesigns]

Well i guess its up to namba to change it.. Or for someone to propose it first

[T.S.Davis]

Well i guess its up to namba to change it.. Or for someone to propose it first

Yep.

I feel that the mah restrictions are silly as there is no practical way to verify it. Plus, if you go out and buy a Revo cell for instance but you never charge it to 4.35 or what ever it is.............is it still a 5800mah pack like the label says? Not really. If Revo guy charges to 4.2 instead of 4.35 and never gets to even 5000mah is he a cheater? Not by me he isn't.

I know I've said this before but the next gen batteries will require some careful timing to take the lid off them. We don't want to yank the proverbial rug out from under anyone's fleet.

John, that was awesome. Pretty accurate too. Although, a 2017 cup? Do I have too?

[RandyatBBY]

I think if the Mah limit was lifted the 5000 Mah packs (and getting scarce) would not be so high priced and would open up the use of 5200Mah and 5600MAH packs that are cheaper. Old retired view of racing. But there will all be some on saying ware does it all stop? 8000Mah packs and 2P or evan 3P???

[raptor347]

So, this has all the usual potential for becoming ugly and devisive. We really don't need it. NAMBA, IMPBA and NAVIGA all implemented Lipo rules at slightly different times in the evolution of the cells and with different levels of experience with the tech. At the time, NAMBA sticking with round cells for another season would have killed off most participation. The price, durability and reliability of the cells had made them very unattractive. I think the IMPBA rules show some lessons learned from out implementation and NAVIGA incorporated the experience of the FAI pilots in Europe.

I'll be happy to admit that the mah limit are not practical to measure, especially in a heat racing format. For record trials, it hasn't been an issue because most serious competitors are running 1P systems and the largest capacity cell that has any real performance potential is ~6000mah. The advent of the big twin cats and a few other projects I know about are going to make this a bit more challenging.

As far as huge horsepower applications not being practical. I agree that a 34" mono isn't going to handle a 6kW power system well, but that's the one hull type that doesn't lend itself to very high power. I can see where a sport hydro, rigger or possibly a cat could use the power. When you step up to the 40" limit for Q, there is all kinds of room to use up power. There are a few other subtle differences between NAMBA and IMPBA FE rules. NAMBA allows twins in P, IMPBA doesn't. IMPBA has a 60" length limit for all outrigger classes, NAMBA applies the same length limits across all hull types. Namba has a a timed 4 minute offshore endurance class, IMPBA doesn't. I guess what I'm saying is the batteries aren't the only difference in rule sets, so seamless transition from one to the other has other obstacles.

So here's what I learned from the latest 2-lap at Legg.
-A 6kW heat race P rigger is very possible, even within the 34" limit.
-Q boats have the potential of about 9kW in heat trim. That's sticking within the 10k mah limit.
-Is everyone going to show up with one, probably not.
-Am I going to try and build them, absolutely!
-Would I like a bigger fuel tank for these applications, maybe.
-Finally, do I think we need some limit to the size of the fuel tank, yes we do. We also need a good way to tech it.

That being said, this is something WE need to figure out. The 3.7 nominal wording can go, I think we all agree there.

[Darin Jordan]

But there will all be some on saying ware does it all stop? 8000Mah packs and 2P or evan 3P???

Randy,

Just for the sake of clarifying... NAMBA already has UNLIMITED paralleling. In other words, there are NO restrictions on Paralleling in the present NAMBA rules. Only mAh limits.

[Doug Smock]

Thanks for posting Brian, good to know your thoughts on this.

We're trying to figure what we're going to do for the Michigan race.
Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

[raptor347]

Thanks for posting Brian, good to know your thoughts on this.

We're trying to figure what we're going to do for the Michigan race.
Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. The choice to buy HV cells is the racers to make, not being able to use the full marked capacity as well as how those cells fit within class specs should be considered when making that purchase decision.

When going racing, it's the racers job to comply (or not, depending on the racers morality) with the rules as written, good or bad. Let's face it, rules range from really good to really bad. NAMBA's capacity rule doesn't fall under the "good" end of the spectrum, the term "flawed" comes to mind. That being said, for the time being we're stuck with what we have. There's no mechanism in NAMBA that I know of to arbitrarily disregard any given rule.

It's pretty obvious that we all recognize there's an issue. NAMBA's rule change process takes some time, each organization does it differently. In the mean time, racers need to practice a little due diligence and do their best to comply with the rule set we have. It's not really that tough.

The point of this discussion is to figure out what direction we want to take going forward.

BTW. Soaking your batteries until the labels fall off is really hard on the tabs.

[Doug Smock]

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. :

Thanks, that's all I needed.