P-Limited: WHAT is the INTENT?

[Darin Jordan]

It sounds like we need to better define the INTENT of the P-Limited class.

People's thoughts seem to get lost in long conversations. Perhaps each of us can provide a bullet list of the things that they expect P-LTD to provide; A Class Philosophy or Statement of Intent.

According to the current rules, the power systems are all based on past and current RTR offerings from only TWO manufacturers; Horizon Hobby and Tower Hobbies (Pro Boat and AquaCraft).

The rules and limitations are also written from an "RTR" standpoint, but there IS a mention of additionally allowed motors.

No mission/Intent statement was ever included in the rules (hindsight is 20/20), so perhaps we should try to define that now for future use?

For reference, here are the fundamental part of the existing rules that may or may not influence your thoughts:

d. P-Limited Approved Motors

i) The motors shall be used as shipped from the manufacturer, with the
exception of creating a drive shaft flat spot, adding water cooling, and
allowing the motor to be connected to the ESC by any means.

ii) Currently approved motors

P_LTD_MOTOR_AVAILABILITY.jpg

iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:

(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.

(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.

(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event

To make it easier to decipher, rule iii.b, it can be read to be this:

The CD has the discretion to allow the following:

1) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.

2) Any generational change of an approved motor.

3) Any motor that is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering. (as long as there is no more than a 5% increase in any of the following manufacturers specifications as compared to any single approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating, mass, and MSRP.)

4) Any additional motor allowances, as long as they are listed on the Race Flyer.

SO, anyone care to share a concise, bulleted list, or perhaps a sentence or two "Statement of Intent" on what they think "P-LIMITED" means as a race class??

[longballlumber]

Since I’ve put my foot in the door, I should probably continue to participate. Below is what I would call the P-Limited Mission Statement:

P-Limited’s mission statement is to provide a cost effective class of racing for all skill levels by controlling the level of performance using a limited motor selection guideline. Our goal is to encourage equal performance among all like hull types that fit within the “P” sized classes fostering and encouraging boat tuning and driving ability.

In my eyes this translates to two equally important requirements of the class:
1. Equality of performance
2. Cost Control

If our established rules for the class don’t support both of those requirements with a resounding “YES” we will need to take a serious looks at what compromises need to be made to get as close to “YES” as possible.

[Fluid]

From the 2006 NAMBA LSH rules:

"Experienced racers are strongly encouraged to consider the skill level of the opponents when running in this class, since the intent is to encourage less skilled racers to have success."

Otherwise we just have a P-Lite class with the same guys winning. Is that what we really need?



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[ray schrauwen]

I like it Mike. I could not say or type it any better.

.... At this year's MI Cup I think LSH was won with a UL-1 driven by a new racer. He was consistent.

[ron1950]

I think Jay hit it right on the head....the same exp drivers run all the limited classes doesent make it much fun on newbies

[trigger]

Not so much of a definition, but food for thought.

P-Limited will ultimately be People buying boats available off the shelf, it is basically how the vast majority of people get into the hobby. To me P-limited will evolve as time and markets change, to that end P-limited will need to become fluid and move with the times. Our club classes have seen this, UL-1's were popular, now not so much, same with SV27's, but Lucas oils, Motely crews, spartans, Black jacks, MG29's and so on are strong for now.....as new waves of RTR hit the shelves people will buy them and show up wanting in on the racing action and that is where we need to encourage and be ready. Local clubs can help more easily yes, but it would be nice to see the hobby evolve and grow too.

An example - not suggesting solutions....What that might mean is limiting power to 4s for a new novice with a new market boat, for example the BJ29 V3 or the new Voracity, or it might even mean a complete new class based around RTR offerings "P-limited 2" so to speak, leave P-limited alone (except we will need to buy a replacement motor legally one day....) and add to suit the trend of RTR's, no motor or ESC changes allowed??

The market is evolving, which I find exciting, I think we need to think creatively to ensure we get the people buying these new offerings with a place and class to start running them, without having to mod them to fit in. If the rules are over complicated, no one will ever want to join up and race because it's too complex to figure out, we need to get them hooked. If we build it they will come or at least I think so.

[Doug Smock]

.... At this year's MI Cup I think LSH was won with a UL-1 driven by a new racer. He was consistent.

It was some yahoo with a MLB310.

[ray schrauwen]

Oops..... Lol... My bad...

[Darin Jordan]

I think Jay hit it right on the head....the same exp drivers run all the limited classes doesent make it much fun on newbies

But... LSH and LSO were only two classes. P-Limited is a complete power specification. Are you guys really saying that the intent of P-Limited is to provide EVERY hull type to "newbies" to cut their teeth on?

Another question: WHY would ONLY "newbies" be interested in parity, reduced costs, and more balanced competition?

Call it "P-Lite" if you want, but the concept IS what has kept our club, many other clubs, and, frankly, the NAMBA Nationals going for several years.

Why are we trying to define National level rules that cover so many different rounds at an event for only new racers?

[Darin Jordan]

I'm typing this on an iPad and had trouble quoting Trigger above, but on the subject of RTR.

P-Limited WAS based on the two most popular RTR power systems AT THE TIME. The RTR a offerings at that time fit by default, and some wanted the class limited to those hulls as well,

As the rules show, the concept of OPEN hulls, restricted to using existing RTR power systems is what was implemented.

At this point, I would actually propose that we would simply need "RTR MONO", and/or "RTR CAT" as two, simple, RTR only classes that are "box stock RTR" classes. Maybe limit them to 4S and 6S boats, off the shelf, props are open, or props are stock(yawn). Either way, now you have that "Beginner" class, and you've only added two classes to the race day.

[trigger]

Darin,

I get what your saying and I like the idea of open prop too to any potential class additions.

Perhaps we are over thinking the idea of the additional motors. Even if we add only Leopards and TP's at least those will be around for a while and we know they are about in line.

Appreciate your efforts on forum.

[egneg]

In D-12 we are also limited to RTR ESC's. I would like to see any 60 amp esc as I could get 2 maybe 3 of brand x at the same price.

[Darin Jordan]

In D-12 we are also limited to RTR ESC's. I would like to see any 60 amp esc as I could get 2 maybe 3 of brand x at the same price.

The new Pro Boat RTR a ESCs are 120A programable units, very similar to the Hobbywings.

[Chilli]

In D-12 we are also limited to RTR ESC's. I would like to see any 60 amp esc as I could get 2 maybe 3 of brand x at the same price.

Chuck, Make sure you tell Dick and we'll bring it up at the next district meeting. P-Limited seems to be loosing popularity in the district and I don't know what the future holds, so I've been staying out of the P-Limited threads.

Missed you at Smithfield this past weekend. Everyone had a great time.

[T.S.Davis]

If P limited becomes "vets need not apply" then at what point are you no longer allowed to run it?

We have one particular guy that had never raced boats show up with RTR boats. He had raced every other thing with a radio but not boats. He's a good driver and wins by driving well and finishing every time. He's got the boats running pretty well now too. Even won a class at the nats. Do I tell him he has to quit racing?........or find a better job? Not every experienced guy can afford 175 amp P+ beasts.

Being an experienced racer doesn't mean you win as a result either.

Our club will shrivel and die if the vets can't run limited.