NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

[DPeterson]

Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

[Grimracer]

Doug,
make them all puplic.. 12 is alot and maybe we can all learn from them..

Grim

[madmikepags]

p spec racing is great, I love the competition, but I am one of the guys who blows up motors, setups? over propping? driving style? probably all of the above and all my fault, but the fact is that if we spec 1 good quality motor you can run that 1 motor for years. Dave I know you are getting a couple of seasons from these motors but you are not the norm! you are also not the norm when it comes to racing, you and your boats are some of the best we have all seen you take lots of time with setup and testing and really know your stuff. That being said most people dont do that or dont have the time. Me myself, only race 6-8 times a year and practice 3-4 more times, that is not a lot, but I have a pretty descent fleet and do OK at big races (but not in p-ltd classes) I should drop P-ltd from my program because I don't have the time to get my setups "right". I have enough other boats to keep me busy anyway!!!!

Now a few questions? Out of curiosity can we get a manufacturer (NEU) or anyone else to build a motor to "our specs" nothing crazy but strong and reliable??? Would any of you pay $150-200 for a spec motor that would last you 5 or more years? Thats less than $50 a year. How many actual p spec "Racers" or maybe the ? should be how many p-spec "race boats" are actually out there? 100-300-500? how many were entered at the nats? 80-100? we know they are not all on this board but how could we find this out?
I am just asking questions I am not really saying that we need to change the rules, I know how hard Dave works as FE chairman and changing rules is a process.

[ray schrauwen]

I'd like to know what Tower hobbies has to do with it Doug? Sorry for my ignorance...

Grim - I got a dozen reasons I am out of P-Limited. Only going to make 2 of them public. Motors and Tower Hobbies/AQ.

I like Spec classes more now because I gave up on pushing the limit of speed after cooking 2 motors and esc's a couple of years ago. I just prop down now drive as best I can and hope for a bit of attrition from the guys pushing the envelope. I find it a fun class that is more relaxing than open classes.

If it comes down to 2 motors to choose from, that could become a problem but, is it a problem yet? I don't think so so why don't we wait and see what happens to Proboat in the near future?

Getting anyone's panties in a wad now isn't going to do anything but, put people off in the long run.

Long live spec classes!

That said, the guys in OZ have adopted 1P racing with motors like Leopard, TP, etc but, not NEU so much as far as I know. Even in Quebec they sort of adopted this style too and it seems to be a nice in between Scenario that does appeal to me but, not to many others in here it seems.

If people want to cut down the number of classes I wonder if 1P open classes would be the answer? Just thinking out load... By the numbers above it seems like all the extra money and equipment for 4S open classes seems almost pointless.

Eventually things will change, to what I dunno?

[madmikepags]

Ray I run everything 1P except offshore classes so the 1P is not really limiting anything. What our club did was limit the amp rating on the batteries, no more than 200 continuous amps so you can run a 40C 5000mah or a 50C 4000mah on all N2 and P classes. Basically we all run the turnigy 40C 5000's 2S pack costs $23. It's not a great way but it has kept our costs down and the competition close.

[RandyatBBY]

Motor reliability is really important. I have some 4 and 5 year old motors and they run great (55/52MPH Hydro). Frank one of the guys in my district. (that I have been trying to entice in to FE racing) He has a P LTD Sport that I set up just like my boat and he has burned up 4 or 5 motor. All were the AQ 2030kv and 1800kv. Watching this I was wondering if the quality of the motors went down? Is there such a thing besides Neu's that last now in 2014? I deal with a lot of customers that like to keep it on a budget. I also do too.

[madmikepags]

Ray I run everything 1P except offshore classes so the 1P is not really limiting anything. What our club did was limit the amp rating on the batteries, no more than 200 continuous amps so you can run a 40C 5000mah or a 50C 4000mah on all N2 and P classes. Basically we all run the turnigy 40C 5000's 2S pack costs $23. It's not a great way but it has kept our costs down and the competition close.

[D. Newland]

...Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".

...For me. I'll push a motor until it breaks. Some of you have seen me do it. More than once. Did it recently with the Proboat 1800's. Baked one of those Saturday as a matter of fact. I wanted to know how far I could push before the smoke exits the can. Found it. We'll dial back from there. Now if there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory I'll never find the edge. Motor A and motor B from the same manufacturer aren't the same. SS1 motors anyone?...

Not entirely user error, I made that clear in my post on Doug's thread, but you kind of just made my argument. I may know you better than you know yourself. If you get your hands on a better quality P-Ltd motor, your issues won't be solved until you take a close look at your mentality towards your setups, testing/tuning and racing. Come on, T. I'm just looking for a tad bit of personal accountability. That's all. Don't make me search all your threads discussing equipment you have turned crispy.

[RandyatBBY]

[QUOTE=Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis View Post
...Our FE Chairmen believes the motor failures are due to user error and is hesitant to make any changes to the "list".
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Quote Originally Posted by T.S.Davis
...For me. I'll push a motor until it breaks. Some of you have seen me do it. More than once. Did it recently with the Proboat 1800's. Baked one of those Saturday as a matter of fact. I wanted to know how far I could push before the smoke exits the can. Found it. We'll dial back from there. Now if there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory I'll never find the edge. Motor A and motor B from the same manufacturer aren't the same. SS1 motors anyone?...[/QUOTE]

Not entirely user error, I made that clear in my post on Doug's thread, but you kind of just made my argument. If you get your hands on a better quality P-Ltd motor, your issues won't be solved until you take a close look at your mentality towards your setups, testing/tuning and racing. .

This is just what I was talking about. If there is a tolerance in the motors right from the factory can we find a solution?

[D. Newland]

Randy-I may not be understanding your question. Can you re-phrase it?

Hey Mike-Thanks for your comments and I can appreciate your situation. Really I do.

[Darin Jordan]

Guys, let's try to be realistic about the nature of racers. We are GOING to find the limits of ANY motor that is allowed. You can put whatever artificial or real limitations you like, someone, somewhere, is going to make one fail.

I think the goal should be to have a list of approved motors or allowed motors that are:

1) Readily available
2) Not "cost prohibitive".
3) All reasonably competitive.
4) Offers KV options to allow a variety of hull-types
5) Offer reasonable reliability when used within accepted parameters

I'm not sure what more one could expect. If ALL of the motors on the list met these basic requirements, then the class will be fine. If you allow ONE motor that is a $250.00 Neu, and another that is a $30.00 Hobbywing, then I think you'll fun into problems, as the inherent quality of one would, in itself, be a competitive advantage, so I do think that overall cost is important, and I'd keep that in mind as I'm working up a list.

Pro Boat WILL have another motor offering at some point here.

As long as Pro Boat, Aquacraft, TFL, and other RTR manufactures are selling boats, there will be additional motors. However, David helped to factor that point of fact into the existing rules, by putting in the "CD's discretion " part. That would at least make it possible for another motor, not on the list, to go through a testing in competition process prior to be submitted to "management" to consider for an "approved motor list" update.

[photohoward1]

I hate spec and run it begrudgingly. I cannot suggest an AQ motor to a newby. For $80 they get frustrated at the quality. A leopard 4072 or 4080 is way more reliable than the spec approved motors. Yes more powerful but more bang for the buck. For the same cost a spec rigger with the leopard will go 60 plus all day and not break a sweat. Your LSH boat too and a DF33". Same price more reliable and more speed. The original idea was to keep the cost down. Jump to 2014 and there are better options than a 36mm motor.

[Grimracer]

I am quite sure.. as a matter of fact 100% sure.. they all have a "tolerance" associated with performance and assembly…
Truth is from the shaft dia to the coating on the windings.. to the epoxy holding the magnets.. they all have a tolerance.
So you know I am not picking on FE our Nitro motors do too.. Just imagine.. a thou out here and a thou out there and we have stacking tolerances. Piston 1/10thou out and the liner 1/10 under.. the rod .001 longer and the piston pin hole…….. you get the idea.
Same deal with FE motors. The wire coating a tick thicker the mags a tad thinner. The mags at such a gauss the shaft such a hardness.. the bearings pickled with that oil…
Not to mention.. issues that come up IN the mfg process. New people, new machines, new supplies, humidity or the lack of it.. left not right.. Im sure you understand
At the end of the day… no matter what you purchased from grills to cars.. they are all subject to “tolerance”
Yum.. grills.. that reminds me.. need to fire up the grill tonight!
Grim

[T.S.Davis]

That wont be necessary. I'm pretty open about that. I never dreamed that being open about finding the edge and sharing it with people would come back to haunt me but I guess it has. I don't race that far out to the edge but I know where it is. If a guy asks you at your pond "how much prop can I run?" Do you know where the envelope is? I do. Accept for the 2030. My knowledge base of that motor is null and void.

How do you explain the failures of the guy Randy setup to run just like his personal boat that he's got a 4 year old motor in?
Or how about these guys:
Peterson
Kewley
Siewert
Castellani
Pete Z.
Joe Kaz

Just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Fred and Tom were top 5 overall I think. Are those guys just not doing it right too? Fred lost a 2030 last month and doesn't want to buy another. What for? So he can get 4 to 6 heats out of it?

Heck, Joe has documented every single run since I've known him. He's started another book. The old one was full. So he's the opposite extreme of the way I do it......still burned one.

Pete has been working on the perfect turn fin for months. Thinner thinner thinner change the shape a little. Change it again. Different curvature. Tweak tweak tweak for a half MPH at a time. They're starting to add up too. Burnt.

Fun with numbers. We like numbers. My boats race once per month but get laps on them for practice usually twice per week. We try to get two runs in. So my boats are in the water approximately 19 runs per month. My son and I both run. We have 6 boats we race/run regularly. Lets say it's actually only 15 times a month for each boat. 15 runs x 6 boat at 7 laps average is 630 laps per month that my setups are doing each month. It's likely more because of offshore. How many guys can say they're gear runs 630 laps of limited a month? Personal accountability? I have a tad. You make it sound like I have a "burn em if you got em" approach to racing and that simply isn't the case. My boats don't bake a motor every time they hit the water Dave. You can't turn a 100 laps a month with a setup and burn up a motor every time you hit the water.

I know/knew which motors I can/could push and don't run those I can't anymore. Now nobody has a choice because there are only 2 left. One of the two I don't trust so that leaves just one motor.

[RandyatBBY]

I hate spec and run it begrudgingly. I cannot suggest an AQ motor to a newby. For $80 they get frustrated at the quality. A leopard 4072 or 4080 is way more reliable than the spec approved motors. Yes more powerful but more bang for the buck. For the same cost a spec rigger with the leopard will go 60 plus all day and not break a sweat. Your LSH boat too and a DF33". Same price more reliable and more speed. The original idea was to keep the cost down. Jump to 2014 and there are better options than a 36mm motor.

And is the quality the same from motor to motor if pushed to the max then dialed back a little? It is a $93 dollar motor. If we tried to match performance of the present list would a Leopard 3674 1900kv be about the same ?