(Moved)Another P Limited / Spec motor discussion

[rayzerdesigns]

I kinda mentioned it earlier there. On race days...............there just is no debate. Nobody is wringing their hands about it at all. It's only on line that minds are lost. It's truly bizarre. It's like a different group of humans. Once we stop bickering about it like teenage girls, the BOD's form each organization will look at the results instead of the rhetoric.

Couple guys asked me the same question about the timing on a national set of rules. "What's the difference really?" If we had a rule set today, next month, or next year. Makes no danged difference. Venues (like a NATs, spring nats, MCup) will cater to what puts butts on the drivers stand...............until it doesn't. Tougher for NAMBA because they're already saddled to the old set. It will require monumental effort to get a trial set run at a national event. Heck, some of them believe that if it aint in the book it's not insured.

Jerry, if yer racing NAMBA you would need to swap out the motor for one on the list to be legal. Worth checking with the guys you plan to run with though. Many locale have opted for a revised version of "limited" based on dimensional data. That being 37mm x 62mm x 268 grams max. The 268 grams thing is something we only recently added. Motors that weigh in more than that are typically custom made. Possible of course. Hence the rule but rarely seen.

268 is way to heavy in my opinion..and I think the size needs to be smaller.. 37x60 max.. but that’s my opinion.. I applaud you guys in impba for trying to right the ship.. and am keeping s close eye on how ur nats work out.. I actually don’t like the weight thing for ease of tech.. I will be writing a proposal not far after the nationals there terry.. please keep me updated..

[rayzerdesigns]

Just wanted to update this with some info regarding motor size. I recently found a 36x58 size motor that had some solid looking numbers as listed by the manufacturer. I ordered one up to see how it would do in my new p-ltd cat. Before installing the motor I ran several times and at different ponds located in Southern CA with the gps speed consistently reading 50 mph ( 49.8, 50.3, 50.1, 49.7, etc) for my set up which is/was a AQ1800 kv motor and a stock prop from a ProBoat Zeles 29 that I sharpened and balanced. Then, changing nothing but the motor I ran again. To my delight my boat was now running 5 mph faster, on one run I hit 56 and change. The kv on the new motor was slightly higher, what was surprising is the amp draw was very close to the same. This motor retails for $99.99 usd and is available to anyone willing to place the order. I didn't have to call the manufacturer to have it specially made or anything. My AQ cooler was a direct fit.

I think we are trying to eliminate cases where a simple motor swap would yield a 5+ mph gain but how do we do that? To put that in perspective I was prop testing with the AQ 1800 and saw a 4 mph increase going from a m445 to the 1716. So how much of this is to blame on the motor and how much is to blame on the prop?

Prop being the key! Used to be a 445 was great on just about every boat.. but the abc line of props are amazing..I knocked 10 seconds off of mono record by changing to an abc prop..

[rayzerdesigns]

Yeah maybe. That might eliminate a couple TP's but if that keeps someone from inventing something insane it may be worth it.

Interesting to me is the fact that the motor list was and still is virtually un-techable.

The weight thing is not that big of a deal Ray. Think about every other class that has some form of limitation. Nitro and gas have limitations. You have to actually disassemble the motors to know with certainty they are correct. A weight limit for us is drop it on a scale. Dropping it on a scale - would only happen if there was some clearly obscene fast motor that raised suspicion of other racers. Like a "hmmmmmmmmm?" moment.

We need to take a minute and give ourselves some credit I think. For all the on-line hand wringing over it, on race day there was never any discourse. Maybe a level of trust exists that we don't give ourselves credit for. With the list, you could have rewound them to look factory. You could have swapped bearings. No way to prove that really either. Heck, from outside the can you would never know if the rotor was factory. Can you modify that somehow? I have no clue on that. All these things could maybe have been done (not to my knowledge BTW) and were impossible to prove or disprove. To tech the motor list you would have had to take them completely apart and check them against the original manufacturers specifications. Two AQ 2030's from different lots had different wires. "Unmodified" is right in the text. So.....prove it's "unmodified". Yet, no protests.........ever. 9 years or so.......and not a single motor protest anywhere. Not at a Cup. Not at a nationals.

I predict that with any new guidelines this will still be the case. L x W x W. Simple. Most guys would look inside someones boat. See motor x,y,z. Recognize it. Know what it was and a protest doesn't come. If it ever did, it will still be less intrusive than the procedure for a B hydro protest. Perspective.

Is there going to be a NAMBA FE nats this year Ray? I would be concerned that the motor list would hinder participation since most/some (how bout many?) of the country is moving away from that. A NAMBA nats might be a good place to establish proof of concept since there are fewer NAMBA clubs of late to use for reference. Of those I'm not sure there is consensus. I'm no NAMBA expert though.

Yes terry there will be nats in namba this year.. just like last year it’s a combined event.. I’m ok with that because I enjoy all the fuel types.. we can go back and forth on the weight thing terry.. I do think the 268 is on the heavy side and the 62mm is on the long side..as for weight.. is that with connectors?? Without?? A certain length of wire?? It leaves it open to debate.. unless u word it properly.. which I don’t see in your rule set.. you know me I’m not trying to start drama.. in fact want it to go away.. limited is the backbone of fe racing period.. I will be writing a proposal after your nationals in Michigan..but in all reality I’m looking at making max length 60mm..keep me informed.. as I would like to see both organizations have same rule set for limited

[Darin Jordan]

37x60 max..

I wouldn't allow 37mm... I would make the max 36.3mm. That covers about everything you'd want, at least based on my data gathered back when. Nothing out there is exactly 36mm, and 37mm will get people having custom cans made, etc..

P_LITE_MOTOR_SIZES.jpg


As for length, it's all over the board with our current list. If you include some of the popular proposed replacements over the years (TFL SSS3660, Pro Marine, etc.), then the limit would need to be around 61.2mm.

I still don't think that the "goal" is to NOT see an increase in overall performance. I think that may be impossible to restrict.

I think the goal should be SIMPLE and ENFORCEABLE. It does not matter WHAT you set the length/width at, people are going to try to MAX IT OUT. That's a given. That's fine. Let them. There WILL be an ultimate cap on the performance and then the class will stabilize and run... forever... without having to address these rules again.

I feel the weight limit is an unnecessary "feel good" complication that is, frankly, unenforceable. You can try, but there will ALWAYS be a problem with it (wires?, connectors?, cooling jackets?, someone making a custom carbon outer can, etc.)... Plus, it's VERY invasive. You can tell me it's not all you want, but if I have to remove the power system from the boat for you to tech it, especially if I have to remove contacts, water jackets, etc., then it's intrusive and unnecessarily complicated. to enforce.

The truth is that NAMBA WOULD have had this vote already had we stuck with my original suggested dimensions of 36.3mm x 61.2mm. Unless Mike Ball comes up with better data from his research that suggests that stuff is available in smaller lengths, which is the other key to trying to make a rule... motors actually have to be AVAILABLE that fit the rules... then 36.3mm x 61.2mm is where I'd put the limits and it'd be out for a vote.

[dethow]

I do think the 268 is on the heavy side and the 62mm is on the long side..as for weight.. is that with connectors?? Without?? A certain length of wire?? It leaves it open to debate.. unless u word it properly.. which I don’t see in your rule set.. you know me I’m not trying to start drama.. in fact want it to go away..

Ray,
Terry is out of town until next week so I just want to step in here and let you know that there is NO DEBATE on the rule set. An exact rule has not been detailed and fully written at this point but the weight limit is for the motor, plain and simple. Most motors do not come with connectors, collets or cooling jackets attached. These items can have varying weights and do not affect the performance of the motor. Thus, are being taken out of the equation.

So the motor has to be under 268 grams. If your motor can be under that with connectors, collet and/or cooling jacket still attached then your good. If you have to remove those to get under the 268 then your have to remove them. Period.

If someone wants to push the limits and cut wires and/or shaft down, then so be it. As long as the motor is 37mm x 62mm x 268g or less, it will be legal. Again... PERIOD. No debate. EASY to tech if necessary. There will be no... "Yeah, but the wires are only an inch long." If its 268g or less its legal. PERIOD.

And just to make sure no one jumps into this thread and misunderstands by thinking all motors will be weighed... NO.
There will only be a tech completed if there is a challenge made by another racer. Likelihood of a challenge is slim to non unless a boat is just hauling balls and the motor doesn't appear to be one of the standards that everyone knows.

And BTW, Ray... if you go less than 268 grams you will knock out the TP 3630 and may knock out the Leopard 3660. Those motors are of no threat to others and should be allowed. Anything under 253g and you'll knock out the SSS 3656 and the Dynamite 3831.
268 grams is a specific number that I'd prefer to see rounded up to 270 grams, but whatever. It's inclusive for everything guys have been using and not showing dominance. It also allows for future motors to come out and leave room to be included without allowing them to get crazy. As long as the motors are within the dims and weight the parity should be feasible and the favorite motors will come to the surface over time.

[dethow]

I wouldn't allow 37mm... I would make the max 36.3mm. That covers about everything you'd want, at least based on my data gathered back when. Nothing out there is exactly 36mm, and 37mm will get people having custom cans made, etc..

Darin... we've had this discussion already.
Your Neu 1409 measured 36.3mm while every Neu 1409, 1410 and 1412 I have measured is 36.5mm. The 37mm limit is there to leave some room for slight variations in manufacturing. Same thing on the length... nice rounded number to allow for some slight variations in manufacturing.

The weight thing will play out. I really don't want to get back into that debate. And I personally think it should be left alone for a while and lets see how it goes this season. This stuff has been talked and talked... lets take some time to race and test.

But Darin... as long as you will bend a little to let it be 36.5mm diameter so the Neu 1412s can be used... You've got a problem.
My 1415s are 61.5mm long. I'm sure they could be made to knock another 0.3mm off the length to fit the 61.2mm you propose.
So without a weight limit the 1415s and other over powered motors would be allowed. NOT GOOD.
Or even you leave it 36.3mm x 61.2mm. Without a weight limit... over powered motors could be made to fit.
Own it or chase it... and it costs $300 to own it. NOT GOOD.
Beside the fact that there would be very little difference in speed between limited/spec and open p. NOT GOOD.

No matter how you play it out... without a weight limit and class is doomed.

Don't worry... no one wants to pull your Dynamite 3831. We all see that's what it is and we all know that motor is well under the limits. But if your boat is running 5mph faster then everyone else AND we can see there is more copper in that Dynamite 3831 can then stock. Yes, you may get challenged and tech'd.

[rayzerdesigns]

I’m with darin on the weight thing for sure.. just like he stated..ease of tech.. but I’m the side of the fence with going down to a 60mm max length.. sure that willl knock some off the list.. but still plenty of options..I get your side of debate Ray.. but as always there is 2 sides.. we are trying to make it simple.. no need to pull motor out.. simple gauge.. we will just have to see how it plays out for now.. but I’m thinking 36.3x60 is where I might write the proposal..

[rayzerdesigns]

As for ur not teching even at nats.. the last 2 nats have had battery tech and motor tech and haven’t slowed down anything.. we want it to be easy.. not to have to pull motor out..

[dethow]

I’m with darin on the weight thing for sure.. just like he stated..ease of tech.. but I’m the side of the fence with going down to a 60mm max length.. sure that willl knock some off the list.. but still plenty of options..I get your side of debate Ray.. but as always there is 2 sides.. we are trying to make it simple.. no need to pull motor out.. simple gauge.. we will just have to see how it plays out for now.. but I’m thinking 36.3x60 is where I might write the proposal..

Your attempts at "ease of tech" and "trying to make it simple" will come at the expensive of parity and cost effectiveness.
Expensive overpowered motors that weigh 290g will be built in 36.3x60 cans. They will destroy the other motors (speed wise) and will cost double the price at least.

You'd be knocking out the Leopard 3660, SSS 3660, maybe the OSE Raider, and some of the TP 3630s have been manufactured over 60mm long.
Oh, and you'd be knocking out the Neu 1409, 1410 and 1412s.

But whatever.... you can write whatever you want and the members will vote. NAMBA can do what they're going to do, and IMPBA will do what they are going to do. The victor in winning over clubs and memberships will most likely be the most inclusive rules while still keeping parity and cost effectiveness. Democracy and time will tell who got it right.

[dethow]

Moving forward... why don't you guys keep your NAMBA rule proposal discussions out of IMPBA threads???
No body wants the drama you are trying to bring.

[rayzerdesigns]

That’s a great attitude..

[TheShaughnessy]

I only posted here because the NAMBA p ltd threads are closed. This seemed to be the best place for it. I think whether a person decides to join NAMBA or IMPBA depends more on location than the rule set governing p-ltd racing. I agree with weight being invasive, depending on your motor mount it can be pretty annoying to have to pull a motor.

[rayzerdesigns]

I only posted here because the NAMBA p ltd threads are closed. This seemed to be the best place for it. I think whether a person decides to join NAMBA or IMPBA depends more on location than the rule set governing p-ltd racing. I agree with weight being invasive, depending on your motor mount it can be pretty annoying to have to pull a motor.

Mikey don’t worry about this guy we all in namba are just causing drama obviously.. funny how everyone knows what drama he has caused in impba also..try to be nice but obviously he resorts to the same person he has been all along.. read his posts.... shows exactly what kind of person he is.. thx for the heads up Terry.. next time I will listen.. glue sniffer.. lolol..

[MarkF]

These seems like the perfect place to discuss this stuff since IMPBA and NAMBA should adopt the same rules. Good discussions so far except for the drama dethow is trying to stir up.

Mark

[Doug Smock]

Moderator hat on

I only posted here because the NAMBA p ltd threads are closed.

Will this one have the same fate? It's up to you fellas.

If you'd like, this thread is still open. And look, it's only 27 pages!! https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...ot-seat/page27

Please keep it on the surface guys!

Going to race toy boats with some friends. Have a good weekend!!

Thanks!