Brushless Motor Timing Advance.

[G Doggett]

The recent discovery that CC Hydra timing advance settings were all over the show has got me wondering just how critical this timing is or isn't.
The little data I can find seems to indicate that 2 pole motors should be set to 1 - 10 degrees, 4 pole motors 5 - 15 degrees, and 6 pole 10 - 20 etc etc.
However this all seems rather vague, and we now know that lots of 2 pole motors were performing quite happily on the 16.25 degrees incorrectly set on the CC Hydra ESCs.
We spend hours analysing prop data, FE Calculators, current draw, component temperature etc but I am yet to find any info on experimenting with timing.
Very few motor manufacturers seem to provide any recommendation on this setting and most ESC manufacturers just provide Low Medium and
Do any of you guys have any real info on this subject, where different timing settings have been used and the results noticed and recorded.
This might be the 'final frontier' in our quest for reliable performance.
Graham.

[ozzie-crawl]

a few years back when i raced 1/10 touring cars we used like a little dyno to set the motors up, if you played with the timing you could see the rpm and amp draw diffrences, somthing like that would be great for brushless motors. mind you the escs were programable to the point were you had 40-80 seperate steps from zero to full throttle and you could change these steps and create diffrent power curves etc. depending on track conditions you could change the program to suit in about 30 sec. imagine in a boat esc to be able to change the program if you was running 5 laps 5 minute or saw type runs or limit how much power you had coming out of turns etc

[crabstick]

Hi Graham, there was a firmware issue with the Castles at some stage that had the low timing setting actually dial in race timing... actually might have been the lower two settings were extreme

with the 2 pole Fiegao all more timing does is make the motor run hotter.

[G Doggett]

OK, - I presume the deathly silence from anyone other than Matt and Ozzie means that nobody has done any research or experimenting on this subject.
I guess I will have to spend some time at the pond armed with a GPS, Eagle Tree, and Temperature Gauge.
The plan is to run different timing settings on my Feigao 8XL powered Triton using the same prop each time.
I want to compare maximum speed, current draw, and temperature on motor and ESC.
I'll keep you posted.
Graham.

[Meniscus]

Great! I am interested in this subject. I have a lesser known brushless motor in the 380L size that simply jams on higher timing without much heat.

Be sure to keep a log to include battery voltages and water conditions, among other things. This will help to eliminate some of the variables and premature conclusions from small test data sets.

What hull type are you going to try this on? I have a sneaky suspicion you may have different results depending on the hull type and prop. I'm thinking that as you approach higher timing, the way the prop catches will make a big difference. I hope I'm making sense. Just some things to think about.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to seeing you data!

[Jeff Wohlt]

Anytime you increase timing you increase amp draw and rpm. So you could get away with a smaller prop and more advance...as long as your ESC can handle the amps.

Most motors can handle 10 degrees. The UL1 ESC is locked in at 10 degrees. Pretty sure that is a 6 pole motor.

[Heath M]

Graham,
I did some bench testing awhile back with a Neu 1515 2d motor, using the live mode on the eagle tree V2 data logger. This was before Castle updated their link to include the the actual degree's of timing. Test was with 4s pack and a H240
Results were,
Low Timing 34403 RPM
Normal Timing 34562 RPM
High Timing 34722 RPM
Highest Timing 34883 RPM.

Thats as far as i got, never got to do a water test to show amp draw or heat

Heath

[Raydee]

I can tell you that advanced timing on the Fiegao motors creates a lot of heat. I have no idea if they have a wind clasification like the Neu motors (D and Y) but I would guess they are more like a D type wind. They don't seem to like higher timing like the Y winds do.

[domwilson]

Ok, I'm confused. Lately I've been reading to upgrade to the newest firmware revision. But I've also heard not to because it causes heat issues. What version has the heat issues and what version is the best? This has been talked about in the past...http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...astle+firmware

[Raydee]

According to Castle the timing was wrong on 1.03 so they wanted everyone to switch to 1.04

I have switched all my controllers over to 1.04 and also DL the newest version of Castle link and all my controllers and motors are running cooler than before with a slight loss of speed. I attribute that to the fact that with 1.04 the motor timing is fixed and actually lower than it was on 1.03.

[domwilson]

According to Castle the timing was wrong on 1.03 so they wanted everyone to switch to 1.04

I have switched all my controllers over to 1.04 and also DL the newest version of Castle link and all my controllers and motors are running cooler than before with a slight loss of speed. I attribute that to the fact that with 1.04 the motor timing is fixed and actually lower than it was on 1.03.

Where can you download the latest firmware? I got the latest castlelink software but can't seem to find where to get the firmware.

[Raydee]

http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...3&postcount=60

This post pretty much clears it all up.

[Raydee]

Where can you download the latest firmware? I got the latest castlelink software but can't seem to find where to get the firmware.

You will see it once you plug your controller into the Castle link...assuming you have one. Once the program opens it will say that a newer firmware is available.

[domwilson]

Thank you. I haven't plugged mine into a "Link" in a very long time. Will do soon.

[norbique]

Any news regarding your tests Graham?

I just took my phoenix 35 users manual and looked up what CC says regarding to timing advance:

Low 0-15° - Recommended for use when efficiency or run-time is primary concern - Gives a slight loss of power with a slight increase in efficiency.
Standard 5-20° - Recommended for most motors (Aveox Hacker, Astro, smaller Mega, Kontronik) Gives a good balance of power and efficiency.
High 12-35° - Recommended for high pole count motors (eg. Jeti or large Mega motors) Gives more power at the expense of efficiency.

Does this mean that we have to use high timing mode every time we're using higher pole count (outrunners) or larger motors?