I could use some help

[Bande1]

to simulate a race run 6 laps. they are 5 lap races with at least 30 seconds of milling at the start. The earlier you throw the boat in the better lane choice you have but the longer you have to mill. at 300A you got about 95 seconds of runtime which is fine. your lap times should be 14-15 seconds each there about. If you are super hot after 3 laps or so turn the timing down in the ESC.

personally I would try to get a 1715 and slow the boat down for a little bit until you get a handle on things.

[DeltaAPmech]

Thanks Bande1 thats perfect, Ill practice that scenario and watch the data carefully. I have a few props on the way based on everyone's input and I'll go from there.

[Ryanj]

I guess what I?m worried about is if the boat can complete a heat. The club I joined is part of the IMPBA and I don?t know how long a race lasts under that organization. How long should I expect the battery to last. Seems like I drain the battery pretty quick with the setup I have now. So that makes me question the amp draw and my setup.

what in the video gives away the fact that it?s running a little wet ?
it?s something I need to learn to spot, seems like you could see it easily.

lts kinda cool that the boat doesn?t look half bad running on the water to you, I must have gotten some of this stuff right��

thanks for the heads up that setup needs to change depending upon conditions. I naively thought - get it right and is good to go from then on. This is great to hear though so I can learn. I?m not out to stand on the podium any time soon, but it will be fun trying to get there even if I don?t pull it off.

Thanks to all you guys for taking the time to share your experience and help this new guy out it?s great !

Pete

I race in the Pacific Northwest in a local club with namba and my thoughts on your current set up as to getting into racing is a very good start. The boat looked good on the water and might be slightly nose down, batteries too forward or the 3 blade might have a bit too much lift. Again the set up is a good place to start and might be good for windy days as less chance for blow overs, Lots of room for tuning and making the boat faster and run better. 68 mph is doing well and can be competitive. Main goal is keeping the boat down from blow overs and crossing the finish line as points add up. sometimes its not how fast you are but staying consistent and finishing the heat. also if you can get the inside lane and hold it well, Then the faster guys will have to work harder on the out side lanes to keep up to you as the inside lane is the fastest lane but can be tricky to hold.

As to your set up, I did look at the data to what i can tell, with a motor value of 4 poles and 2250kv. There is room for improvement to what i know and others can chime in too.
with out really knowing the prop on the data from above. my best guess to the data.

Voltage..... as you start the voltage drops Normal to a point, however after a few laps and full pulls the voltage drops a lot. Voltage Sag as known. few times close to touching the low voltage cut off. Then it will rise to a point. Voltage X kv is the RPM. less voltage, less RPM to a point and voltage sag can hurt the Rpms and Raise amps as well. Voltage law to Amps, watts and voltage, those numbers can be added to figure a basic number to the other. Example-, Voltage divided by Watts= Amps depending on load of motor. Basics for a base line. Now you can go to bigger batteries as 5000 mah or what is allows in the rules as this can be helpful to maintaing maxim voltage as long as possible and RPMs. You can also add a Castle Cap pack to the leads of the esc to help smooth the power flow as well. This is what i have done to My boats.

As to the Amps, This does seem a bit high from the specs of the Tp motor. Its hard to tell again as the prop you ran for the data so hard to know more of the detail. Now i set all my motors to 0 degrees of timing as motors with timing to me and few others have agreed will generate more Amps, heat, and wasted energy Vs. any real gains. Setting timing to 0 will reduce your amps and general heat on the system. Basically run the same as you may not notice the difference. then 2 blade props to me seem to have less load vrs 3 blade props and i personally found 2 blade props to faster on the top end.
As for the run time, given the graph of the voltage of the run in seconds seems to be about 2 mins in time. when i do testing i will ,run for 3 mins in total setting a timer, this to me accounts, the Mill proccess, the 5-6 laps and any extra laps you may have to run if you get penalized all to see if the boat can run that and changes if needed . most heats are under two mins. depending on the class and club you can adjust your testing time to what you might be facing.
Rpms is hard to tell as unloaded and loaded Rpms of the set up. unloaded 16.8 volts X 2250kv= 37,800 +/- a few hundred, loaded Rpms when boat is running to me want to be 10-15% less then unloaded. . 32,500-34,000 Rpms The Graph is hard to tell as only a few times you hit 100 percent full throttle. Now one information is missing, What was the Temps on the Motor, how hot was it. temps on the motor can also aid in tuning the boat as well
You can always go to Off shore electrics website and look at the calculator page, enter your data and give you some basic numbers as to a tuning guide.
helps as a learning tool.
I would be interested to see more data as to another new test time, This time before the boat goes in the water hold full throttle for a Sec as this will give a data for a no load Rpm then run the boat for 6 laps, with hitting Full throttle a few time as to get a loaded rpm down the straights. Also try setting the ESC timing to 0 to se how the boat runs and the Amps. Then record the Motor temps for the data and the prop the boat had during that run as well. all that is helpful for tuning as time goes. Good luck and happy racing

[DeltaAPmech]

Wow Ryanj thats a serious reply��
Its really encouraging to hear my boat is doing well for a new guy.
I have only run the course at our club once and that was tough! I was far from consistent and ended up in the infield multiple times. Its going to take a lot of practice and this boat being electric makes it tough because of the battery limitation. I cant just fuel up and go again. Maybe run the course at lower speeds to conserve electricity until i get better. Right now I would just be in the way of the other drivers and that wont make too many friends!!


For the data I was running a 2 blade ABC 1815-17 except the one log that says three blade and it is an ABC 1815/3 23 50


For the voltage I see what you mean, I can hear and feel it drop and it doesnt take long. Thats been part of my worry about being able to finish a race. I didnt know amp draw would increase with a sag but what you explained makes sense. I looked over the rules and really can't find a capacity limit so maybe 5000 would be a good idea but it aint a cheap idea. I am running capacitors . I built a pack of 8 Panasonic 1200uf 35v caps as close to the ESC as I could get. I did that right off the bat to keep the voltage ripple to a minimum. In all the reading I have done about esc's it seemed like that would hurt an ESC and caps help.


I have been slowly increasing the timing. I started at zero and then five and today it ran at 10. Its so hard to tell what the amp draw is because my throttle is all over the place and the loads on the motor are not even. I guess all the bouncing along the water throws the data all over the place. Sounds like I should drop it back down


My motor temps are 105-115 consistently, measuring all over the motor including the shaft, the end bell is closed except for the 3 holes for the windings so I cant check the rotor itself.


I went out today and ran my two sets of batteries but it was before I saw your reply so I didnt do an unloaded out of water hit.
I was also just doing short runs and adjusting my strut depth. I raised it 1mm and another 1mm and the boat went 68mph and the motor sounded like it wound up faster and made a bit higher pitch. It didnt heat up anything more than it was in the past. The timing today was 10 degrees for the first time too. Ill put the data on Dropbox and there is a video on YouTube I posted that has a few clips of it running I stitched together.


I sure do appreciate the help !
Pete


Video - https://youtu.be/HrttSVA4hn0?si=BlpFQVTpnQxSr6cS
Data - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kfl2a...57e1wb9ce&dl=0

[Peter A]

Some advice if you are going to start racing ovals. Slow the boat down and learn how to first drive around the bouys, and second with other boats. Seriously, there is little more frustrating than seeing new racers trying to keep up with seasoned racers and they just cannot control their boat. It leads to broken boats and upset people.

You will have much more fun if you back the speed off 10 mph or so while you learn to race. It will also be easier on your batteries, you need to be able to finish a race with no less than 20% left.
You have learned already the speed potential of what your boat can do, so you can ramp up the speed back up as your skill and experience grows.

I am wondering if you have spent much time at the club and got advice/help from members there in regards to racing in their classes?
I know NAMPBA has a length limit of 34" for P. Does IMPBA have this also?

[Ryanj]

Wow Ryanj thats a serious reply��
Its really encouraging to hear my boat is doing well for a new guy.
I have only run the course at our club once and that was tough! I was far from consistent and ended up in the infield multiple times. Its going to take a lot of practice and this boat being electric makes it tough because of the battery limitation. I cant just fuel up and go again. Maybe run the course at lower speeds to conserve electricity until i get better. Right now I would just be in the way of the other drivers and that wont make too many friends!!


For the data I was running a 2 blade ABC 1815-17 except the one log that says three blade and it is an ABC 1815/3 23 50


For the voltage I see what you mean, I can hear and feel it drop and it doesnt take long. Thats been part of my worry about being able to finish a race. I didnt know amp draw would increase with a sag but what you explained makes sense. I looked over the rules and really can't find a capacity limit so maybe 5000 would be a good idea but it aint a cheap idea. I am running capacitors . I built a pack of 8 Panasonic 1200uf 35v caps as close to the ESC as I could get. I did that right off the bat to keep the voltage ripple to a minimum. In all the reading I have done about esc's it seemed like that would hurt an ESC and caps help.


I have been slowly increasing the timing. I started at zero and then five and today it ran at 10. Its so hard to tell what the amp draw is because my throttle is all over the place and the loads on the motor are not even. I guess all the bouncing along the water throws the data all over the place. Sounds like I should drop it back down


My motor temps are 105-115 consistently, measuring all over the motor including the shaft, the end bell is closed except for the 3 holes for the windings so I cant check the rotor itself.


I went out today and ran my two sets of batteries but it was before I saw your reply so I didnt do an unloaded out of water hit.
I was also just doing short runs and adjusting my strut depth. I raised it 1mm and another 1mm and the boat went 68mph and the motor sounded like it wound up faster and made a bit higher pitch. It didnt heat up anything more than it was in the past. The timing today was 10 degrees for the first time too. Ill put the data on Dropbox and there is a video on YouTube I posted that has a few clips of it running I stitched together.


I sure do appreciate the help !
Pete


Video - https://youtu.be/HrttSVA4hn0?si=BlpFQVTpnQxSr6cS
Data - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kfl2a...57e1wb9ce&dl=0

looking at your Video and the logs, The video The boat looks to handle very well and holding to water, More of a nose up and sponsons are just touching the water and riding on the prop. Looking great. I would really leave the set up there and work on your turns and handling of the boat. More drive time before pushing for more.
Now the data looks good and RPMs peaks around 33,000. temps are great as well.
Your amps to me are really high and 300+ amps peaking. This could be the 10 degree timing and the 3 blade prop load to the amps. I looked up the specs on the motor to what i can find and saying 300 amps max on the specs for the motor. now i could be wrong and other people can chime in as well. Potentially pushing the motor hard past the max amps rating per the motor. Personally if it was me i would back off and go back to the 2 blade as this will reduce the Amps and timing as well. Then leave the rest of the set up and go race. Then as time goes by push the boat and your skills as you learn. The last thing you want is pushing every thing hard right off the get go and a failure happens. Leaving to a frustrating time. Talk to other club racers and first few races hang in the back trailing in the back learning the course and drive then slowly start going faster. Its a good way to start off and slowly you well become faster.

[Bande1]

at 67 mph plus a slightly wet setup 300A is perfectly normal. A touch over 4000w.

[DeltaAPmech]

Peter A - yep I fully understand not getting in the way of guys that know what they are doing in a race. I plan on hanging back and running wide to just get the feel of racing and only
after lots of solo practice. I am not in a hurry to win anything, I just want to enjoy the journey. Thanks for the reminder.
it’s my understanding the P dimensions for length is the same. I believe this boat was designed with that in mind so it’s just shy of 34 inches.

so far I haven’t been able to make it to the club when anyone else is there. I want to do that and get to know the guys.

Ryanj - I plan on backing off the timing and I have several props on the way to test. You’re exactly right I really don’t want to burn anything up. I already had to swap ESC’s and that was painful!:-)

This sure is an amazing boat. It’s really cool that going so fast it can still turn so hard and keep going. It’s a little intimidating coming around that turn even standing above it on a dock.

Thanks for all the willingness to give this new guy ideas to help me succeed!!!!

Pete

[DeltaAPmech]

Hey guys I got a chance to run my boat again.
I tried a couple of props to see what happens with smaller pitches and diameters. Both of them really slowed don the boat. It did lower the amp draw too but way too slow.
All this was on 10 degrees of timing, I meant to drop it back to 5 degrees but I forgot to get that changed before todays runs.

The first prop was a graupner K series 45mm 1.7 pitch and it pushed the boat to 53 mph with an rpm around 34000 and a draw of 130-160 amps
The second prop was a cnc de-tongued aluminum prop 44mm diameter and 1.6 pitch it went 58 mph with an rpm around 33000 and a draw of 140 to 170 amps
The last prop was the original 2 blade 1815/17 dasboata prop it went 71 mph with and rpm around 30000 and a draw of 240-290 amps
Seems like just a bit less prop would help my amp draw and up the rpms but not sure what to get. I got the cheap props to see what happens with less prop. it makes a big difference with small changes in prop. I don't want to spend a ton of money on good props trying to shotgun the right diameter and pitch. Maybe that's just part of this sport.

I increased the angle of the turn fin a bit more and it seemed to help in the turns. other than that I didn't change anything else. I need to bring some stick on weights next time and test that out too. There were so many great suggestions and there is so little time to try them out with less than a few minutes of time at speed. I'll get to them as I get more time on the water. Wet powered boats seem to have an advantage there.


Video of the the best runs of the day including some flying time - https://youtu.be/A7k_tK9m_dc?si=bWqRcLGj1NJp1cwD

Here is the latest castle log. The first battery/log was the three prop testing smallest to biggest. the second battery/log was all the 2 blade 1815/17 I was able to keep the throttle wide open for a descent amount of time. I'm beginning to think my batteries aren't really up to the task of a full race. The voltage sags so quickly.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jffdk39t62loyv61axgt9/hydro-run-4-71-mph-2-blade-prop.csv?rlkey=ib891qj2pnlv2w1zxvwo90i83&dl=0

Pete

[Ryanj]

Hey guys I got a chance to run my boat again.
I tried a couple of props to see what happens with smaller pitches and diameters. Both of them really slowed don the boat. It did lower the amp draw too but way too slow.
All this was on 10 degrees of timing, I meant to drop it back to 5 degrees but I forgot to get that changed before todays runs.

The first prop was a graupner K series 45mm 1.7 pitch and it pushed the boat to 53 mph with an rpm around 34000 and a draw of 130-160 amps
The second prop was a cnc de-tongued aluminum prop 44mm diameter and 1.6 pitch it went 58 mph with an rpm around 33000 and a draw of 140 to 170 amps
The last prop was the original 2 blade 1815/17 dasboata prop it went 71 mph with and rpm around 30000 and a draw of 240-290 amps
Seems like just a bit less prop would help my amp draw and up the rpms but not sure what to get. I got the cheap props to see what happens with less prop. it makes a big difference with small changes in prop. I don't want to spend a ton of money on good props trying to shotgun the right diameter and pitch. Maybe that's just part of this sport.

I increased the angle of the turn fin a bit more and it seemed to help in the turns. other than that I didn't change anything else. I need to bring some stick on weights next time and test that out too. There were so many great suggestions and there is so little time to try them out with less than a few minutes of time at speed. I'll get to them as I get more time on the water. Wet powered boats seem to have an advantage there.


Video of the the best runs of the day including some flying time - https://youtu.be/A7k_tK9m_dc?si=bWqRcLGj1NJp1cwD

Here is the latest castle log. The first battery/log was the three prop testing smallest to biggest. the second battery/log was all the 2 blade 1815/17 I was able to keep the throttle wide open for a descent amount of time. I'm beginning to think my batteries aren't really up to the task of a full race. The voltage sags so quickly.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jffdk39t62loyv61axgt9/hydro-run-4-71-mph-2-blade-prop.csv?rlkey=ib891qj2pnlv2w1zxvwo90i83&dl=0

Pete

The video and the logs, seems like the 1815 is the fastest running prop. For the amps they seem to be Reasonable also long as temps are in a good range. You can always try a different set of batteries with more C rating and MAh and see how they perform. I personally like the SMC 5000 mah 80c in my hydro. For testing purpose 1815 trying timing set 0- 5 degrees, look for speed and the data log to see any type of difference and compare.
71 mph is a pretty decent speed to going into racing and what you have for a set up. Be a good match up with some of the other guys on the course. adding a few Oz of weight wouldn't hurt that much, moving batteries forward more to more COG forward with the ABC prop, you would have to play with it till you find that good spot. Once you do for the placement of the batteries then use a marker to mark where the batteries are so you always have a reference line to go to. My hydro I'm about 42mm behind the sposon if i remember right for the Balance point running a Modified Octura 1450. Each hydro is different. So a little more tuning on your hydro and you will have it dialed in.
Turn Fin depending on type. Hook version as having the bend normally set at 90 degrees to the bottom of the boat as the hook will help keep the boat hooked in a turn. You can always play with the hook bend more or less to being agressive hook or less as well. Your current set i would just run it to start off with and make adjustments from there as each race goes

[DeltaAPmech]

Hey Ryan,
yep I think I?ll stick to that prop for now. I have a pair of SMC?s I n the mail. I must have read your mind! I backed off the timing to 5 degrees for my next time out. The esc and motor temps are running just over 100. Nothing is hot.

I plan on playing with weight and the turn fin a bit more. The turn fin is just something I cut out of stainless just eyeballing and the images I saw on the internet. Probably not the most ideal but it?s what I have for now. I?m thinking it might be a little big for the size of my boat. Roughly what are the dimensions of your turn fin ? Mine isn?t small. The bracket that holds the fin is also something I made and it has some adjustability in it too. I added a bit more angle to it for the next run too. I don?t want to change much between runs n?s so I can see how each thing effects the boat individually.

[Ryanj]

Hey Ryan,
yep I think I?ll stick to that prop for now. I have a pair of SMC?s I n the mail. I must have read your mind! I backed off the timing to 5 degrees for my next time out. The esc and motor temps are running just over 100. Nothing is hot.

I plan on playing with weight and the turn fin a bit more. The turn fin is just something I cut out of stainless just eyeballing and the images I saw on the internet. Probably not the most ideal but it?s what I have for now. I?m thinking it might be a little big for the size of my boat. Roughly what are the dimensions of your turn fin ? Mine isn?t small. The bracket that holds the fin is also something I made and it has some adjustability in it too. I added a bit more angle to it for the next run too. I don?t want to change much between runs n?s so I can see how each thing effects the boat individually.

This is what I use the sport 20 fin

https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=moj-fins

[DeltaAPmech]

I finally got to run my boat at the club pond. It was a lot of fun. I learned that I am a long long way off from being able to drive well enough to race with other boats. I went between buoys, I went really wide and at one point nearly hit one of the poles that holds the timer !! Other than that it was fun. Next time out I want to get more driving time and will slow down and just concentrate on running a consistent lap.

I hit a new top speed too. It was thru the suggestions you guys gave about some speed might be found in better batteries. I ordered a pair of 80c SMC 4400 HCL's
its surprising the difference from the 100c yowoo 4000's. The run time was a longer ( I know the mAh is a bit bigger ) but the feel of the power seemed different ( better ) the speed was higher and the temperature of the batteries after the run was 30 degrees less !!

I have the data log link here. The second run was using the SMC's the other two are the yowoo's

I also dropped the timing to 5 degrees and this was on the original 2 blade Dasboata prop.

No video this time I was way to nervous running my boat in from of real boaters to mess with all that.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/j8nlf1pkoaxuoyl6elzcz/hydro-run-5-73-mph-2-blade-prop-SMC-battery.csv?rlkey=0q2qy4zdyb9qjunfrx672d6r3&dl=0

[Bande1]

it is a whole nother thing running on a course. thats why we told you to slow it down. the buoys can destroy the boat real fast too.

[DeltaAPmech]

Yep I know, I just couldn?t resist trying a few laps at speed 😁. I did slow down and go around the course too. Even slower it?s tough to do. I?m gonna be more deliberate in my learning how to drive. I was just too excited not to try!!!
At least I?m waiting till I?m the only one out there so I don?t mess with the other guys. On the positive side the boat ran well on the water and in the turns according to the guys watching. That was nice to hear.