Insane Mono for P Mono class-any tips?

[T.S.Davis]

The fact that you can't "see" the difference doesn't make it so Ray. The numbers don't lie.

Examples....

The IMPBA P sport 2 lap record is 20.936 second. That IS smoke'n in my opinion. The best Limited sport number to date was 25.945 seconds. 5 seconds slower. That was set with one of Don's re-winds too.

The NAMBA P Mono SAW record is 9.165 mph faster than the P limited mono record. Another Huff motor.

For the rigger guys. Oval times were closer but still 1.5 seconds apart. In time trials that's a life time. That's at least a straight away behind. The P rigger SAW record is 39.173 mph fast than limited. Not even in the same stratosphere.

Guys like to say "there's no difference" but the data doesn't support the claim.

[ray schrauwen]

I really meant the $$ aspect Terry. The cost of limited power plants for boats has (on average) at least doubled and as you say they are slower than full P. It just seems like people are chasing the dragon so to say.

A TP power 4070 https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pr...rod=tp-4070-v1 is a similar in price to a Viper motor http://ecomaster.torgg.com/product/m...-viper-vz-2240 $20 bucks difference and I'm not showing the $200 Tenshock motor people are shaving down diameter. A huff rewind of a Leo 3674 is $80 for motor (min from OSE, $100 on Ebay) and another $50 for a rewind.

Why not just spend approx. $20 more and go faster in full P?

[T.S.Davis]

Why not just spend approx. $20 more and go faster in full P?

Well. A list....

People can't handle the higher speed
Parts wear out sooner
You need to pull 370 amps to do it so Castle XLX2 minimum
You need to carry 10,000mah on board vs 6000
Those cells better be high C rated or they will puff at that amperage
When you stuff it the carnage is worse
A collision in full P is catO'strophic (git the pool skimmer)
The electronic failure isn't an "IF" it's a "when". Each pull of the trigger is one pull closer to the fire.

Just some things off the top of my head.

The motor is only a part. One piece of an assembly. A P Sport and a P limited Sport are only similar in that they are both sporties and both under 34". My P and Limited aren't interchangeable. They're different animals with common DNA.

It's so odd to me still. If I purpose design a one off hull for limited that only I know how to build, run it, test, it tweak it, test, tweak, build it out of un-obtainum resin, massage a prop made from the dust of Saturn's rings......everyone is in awe of my skills and dedication. If I build a motor for limited......well that's not really in the spirit of competition. Makes no danged sense to me.

[ray schrauwen]

I could wind my own motors too but being in a socialist country it will cost about 50% more to do so. It already costs at least 30% more for most component because of the exchange rate. It IS a factor as to why there is less participation up here not including the tax and duty we try to avoid at every chance.

I don't fault anyone for winding their own motors, it's a wonderful thing however the *limited* part of the class seems to be disappearing. Too bad I don't live in Texas I like their limited N2 sport hydro class. I know, it's like paint drying. Some, not me, might say same about 1/10 scale.

Why was it necessary to go beyond rewinding the blue motors (Edit* or any other factory 36mm x 60mm motor) when they achieved the goal of greater reliability?

[tbonemcniel]

I could wind my own motors too but being in a socialist country it will cost about 50% more to do so. It already costs at least 30% more for most component because of the exchange rate. It IS a factor as to why there is less participation up here not including the tax and duty we try to avoid at every chance.

I don't fault anyone for winding their own motors, it's a wonderful thing however the *limited* part of the class seems to be disappearing. Too bad I don't live in Texas I like their limited N2 sport hydro class. I know, it's like paint drying. Some, not me, might say same about 1/10 scale.

Why was it necessary to go beyond rewinding the blue motors (Edit* or any other factory 36mm x 60mm motor) when they achieved the goal of greater reliability?

Our N2 class is fun. We're all on the same cheap motor and the same prop B/S by OSE. Makes it VERY competitive, and cheap and easy to enter.

[T.S.Davis]

We raced N2 sport with a can size and kv limit for years.

[donhuff]

Hey Terry,

At the last record trials in Huntsville, I drove over there to help Mark Grim if I could, with any motor problems he might have while running his NexGen P Limited rigger. He was trying to lower the limited oval record of 18.636, which he did pretty easily. Then he went after the full P record of 16.916. It took most of the day because of waiting for the water to calm, and getting only 2 to 4 laps before the battery start falling off and the boat slows to much. With a boat setup like this, you can actually see and hear when the battery looses even a small amount of power. The first lap with a fresh battery is stoopid fast, then it must drop 2-3 mph on the second lap.

He kept at it through the day working the time down and honing his driving skill to match the new speeds. Driving at these speeds is more of a "timing" thing, instead of watching it go round and adjusting the line a little here and there. If you have to adjust the line, that run is over, because adjustments waste time.

Looking at the data after a run, everything looked great temp, amps, and rpm wise. I suggested he prop up. But he didn't want to saying that the setup really liked THAT prop. So he "tweaked" the prop tips a smidgen and gave it another try late in the afternoon on some smoother water. Nobody else was running much so he had the water whenever he could get it ready again. And finally he laid down two really good tight on the buoys laps, with fresh battery , and BOOM ...16.7 seconds. That's 2 tenths under the NAMBA full P record and 1/2 second under the IMPBA record of 17.235!

He wants to credit the win to the prop work, because he's a prop guy. I like to say that it was ALL because of the motor, because I'm a motor guy. The battery producer will surely say it was all because of the battery. We all will admit that it had a little (everything) to do with the setup. But if that was the case, then why didn't the previous 50 laps break a record??? Because it took a damn good driver, which he is, that long and that many attempts to figure out what it was going to take for him to lay down two PERFECT laps.

[donhuff]

At our last Grand Prix series race in south Georgia. I couldn't attend so my son Lamar went alone. While loading the trailer he wasn't paying attention and loaded up his Limited mono instead of his P mono. All of our boats look exactly alike for team colors and tactical reasons. And for those outside of our area. We don't have P limited this year, it was not allowed to participate.

So, he didn't realize this until P was in the get ready and the radio didn't work! He switched the TX to the right boat and gave it a try. He won all three heats!!! And this aint no CZII or Viper, or cut down leopard either. It's something I made for him back when we had the 3656 rule. It's actually in an Aquacraft can. I don't remember what's on the inside, but it can't be very wild because I didn't know exactly what to do with them back then. It's been in his boat for 3-4 years now, never even been out of the hull during that time.

Was it the motor that won it for him? Absolutely not!

The setup, yes that always helps. Was it the prop? We do our own. Take it out of the bag, sharpen the leading edge and half ass balance it, and go.

The batteries? I doubt it cause there the same as what everybody else uses. We even use some old Hobby King batteries on sometimes.

Do you think it could have been his driving??

Terry, you know what I'm talking about. Tyler does the same thing. When he gets a little older, maybe he'll learn how to slow down when he needs to.

[RaceMechaniX]

Logged data, lap times and records tell the story here. We have seen a 2x performance jump switching from the older AQ motors to the newer motors. I believe every single one of the new P-Ltd records has been set with a Huff motor of some variety. That tells you Don has worked miracles on these little motors and the performance is that much better.

Older 2030 and 1800kv AQ motors were on the limit around 90-100A with the stock winding. If you could push one beyond that you had a unicorn. Today the rewound motors can run double what the stock winding can. I have logged data from every single record run that either Mark Grim or myself set. Some of these rewound motors are limited by the 400A controllers!

Honestly today there is not much "limited" about these motors anymore. They are on par with 90% of full p-setups.

Speaking of the records in NAMBA:

P-Hydro SAW: 138mph with a TP3650 motor
P-Ltd Hydro SAW: 120mph with a Huff motor, same hull, same controller and same prop.

P-mono SAW: 80.6mph with a LMT 1950 motor
P-Ltd mono SAW: 71.4mph with a Huff motor

P-Sport Hydro SAW: 97mph with a Neu 1521 I believe
P-Ltd sport hydro SAW: 80.27mph with a Huff motor

P-hydro 2-lap: 16.7s with a Huff motor, 16.9s with a TP3650 motor
P-Ltd Hydro 2-lap: 18.63s with a Huff motor,

P-mono 2-lap: 24.8s with a TP4070
P-Ltd mono 2-lap: 24.4s with a Huff motor

P-Sport Hydro 2-lap: 23.0s with a LMT 1950
P-Ltd Sport hydro 2-lap: 25.9s with a Huff motor

Besides the sport hydro record which Kris Flynn owns and the rigger SAW record most records are pretty close.

[donhuff]

Tyler, I really think that we would have a good shot at getting that P hydro saw record. I have a motor with 15% more displacement than the one you were using, and that would be a good increase in horsepower. But You're going to have to shoehorn an XLX2 in there for more ampacity.

[T.S.Davis]

P mono and limited mono 2 laps are close. That P mono and P Sport 2 lap for NAMBA are both weak IMO. The rest are light years apart.

Don, Tyler is getting there. He's been racing for Xray for a year now. Great cars but getting parts for them is a nuisance. He has to ship every part as nobody has them on the shelf. So he tends to drive cleaner as a result. He has no choice. Been good for him. It's forced him to optimize every turn and not crash. Late apexes. Throttle is yer friend kind of stuff. Really been good for him. Seems to translate to boats pretty well.

[RaceMechaniX]

Tyler, I really think that we would have a good shot at getting that P hydro saw record. I have a motor with 15% more displacement than the one you were using, and that would be a good increase in horsepower. But You're going to have to shoehorn an XLX2 in there for more ampacity.

Good to hear you have more in reserve, but no way to shoehorn more controller in that boat. It only fits the ICE/EDGE 200 and barely floats with a 2P battery setup which is needed for 400+A. We would need to tailor-make a rigger design around the motor and controller needed to up that record.

We also need longer lakes to reach higher speeds. At 147mph I am out of room at Huntsville to slow down. This means traveling back to Munich.

[T.S.Davis]

We also need longer lakes to reach higher speeds. At 147mph I am out of room at Huntsville to slow down. This means traveling back to Munich.

What about an air brake like Harris used?

[RaceMechaniX]

What about an air brake like Harris used?

Too much complexity for my liking. And with the larger heavier riggers it does not make a significant difference compared to the smaller ones. Admittingly my riggers are heavier and more portly compared to the European designs or Chris' rigger.

[incidentslide]

When you have 5 to 6 courses a day, you're going to burn through equipment quickly, so the motor regulation modification really helped me save money. I haven't destroyed a rewound motor in over two years of use. I can recall purchasing more than 30 UL1 motors back when everyone was using them. It's impossible to say how many pro boat 2000 engines I purchased and ruined.

coreball