SAWs boat Brakes?

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  • NativePaul
    Greased Weasel
    • Feb 2008
    • 2761

    #1

    SAWs boat Brakes?

    Hi all, I am one of a small group of SAWs racers in England, we have a bit of a problem with lakes here, with the rise of environmentalism, conservation and the ever increasing popularity of worm drowning, there are not many lakes here that allow fast boats, and not everyone is willing to travel to the other end of the country so we need a central location which limits our lakes further, for the last few years we have been running on a lake with approximately 190m (207yd) of usable space.

    Our course is 100m (109yd) long, so if we start 10m from the bank or reed bed (which looks rather close at a distance from our un-elevated driving position) that leaves us only 35m (38yd) for acceleration before the course and a 45m (49yd) area in which to stop and get turned around.

    I have the highest speed record at 84mph, with my L6 rigger, a stretched, forward motor JAE.21 which I know is a hell of a lot slower than most other places in the world, but given the limitations I think is pretty good for a modded retired race boat, and I'm proud of it.

    Typical SAWs high pitch props don't work for us, I see higher speeds on the GPS, above 1.4, but to avoid prop walking I have to feet the power in slower so low speed acceleration suffers and the trap speeds go down. I hit a stick and wrecked my boat, but I was increasing rudder size by steps to reduce prop walk and get the power on earlier, on my final runs I was at least at full throttle on the start line (though still accelerating). I think if I had continued going in that direction I may have been able to get 90, but 100 is well out of reach for a boat that isn't specially designed for it.

    As well as acceleration being a problem, braking is too, I was off the throttle before the end of the course and still I got stuck in the reeds twice. Hanging it non a big turn fin and not slowing down gives unreliable runs as it often takes a while for our system to reset for the next run, so you can get a slightly higher speed one way then the way back doesn't count my I found it best to have a small fin to get it turned at the other end in displacement mode as tight as possible, allowing the lift off to be as late as possible.

    The wreck is reparable, but that boat has reached the end of its road and to do significantly better requires a different approach so now is the time for a new boat.

    It will have twin motors so prop walk shouldn't be a problem, I hope to be at full speed before the start line, and I should be able to reduce the rudder size considerably giving me less drag.



    That leaves me the problem of getting stopped from an even higher speed (hopefully over 100) in only 35m, so I can get turned around in 45m (49yd).

    My first solution is to put the rear boom on the CoG, then I can have a movable fairing on that boom that will reduce the drag at high speed and can go tail up when off the throttle to give downforce applied evenly to the boat. That seems pretty safe but maybe not a strong enough effect alone.

    I have also considered twin rudders and a mix to make them oppose each other when off the throttle, which would be a massive effect, but that amount of force could do unpredictable things, maybe nose the boat down and make it submarine at high speed which would be disastrous, and it would also increase the rudder drag.

    Another thing I have considered is having a bellcrank push a vertical rod down through the bottom of the skis, but to avoid it becoming a planing surface the bottom of it would have to be angled opposite to the bottom of the ski, so it couldn't be flush and would effectively leave a gaping hole in the bottom of the ski, I would have to mount it well forward of the transom to avoid it being a source of drag, which means it would be unsupported for a fair distance and I worry about getting enough strength.

    Have any of you seen any of these braking methods use, and can they give me any information about their effectiveness and/or side effects?

    Can anyone suggest any improvements to those braking ideas, either to increase there effectiveness or to reduce their side effects/ downsides?

    Has anyone seen any other braking methods used.

    Does anyone have any other ideas for braking methods?
    Paul Upton-Taylor, Greased Weasel Racing.
  • properchopper
    • Apr 2007
    • 6968

    #2
    At the 2006 NAMBA SAWs at Legg Lake, Tim Higdon from Alaska had dual rudders on his rigger that splayed to slow down.

    How about using what dragster cars use - a parachute ? Small and securely attached. Just thinkin' early without coffee yet
    2008 NAMBA P-Mono & P-Offshore Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder; '15 P-Cat, P-Ltd Cat 2-Lap
    2009/2010 NAMBA P-Sport Hydro Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder, '13 SCSTA P-Ltd Cat High Points
    '11 NAMBA [P-Ltd] : Mono, Offshore, OPC, Sport Hydro; '06 LSO, '12,'13,'14 P Ltd Cat /Mono

    Comment

    • vvviivvv
      Fast Electric Addict!
      • May 2009
      • 1079

      #3
      Hi Paul,

      Will there be a UK saw event this year?

      My HPR 115 wen't 107mph (gps) on it's second outing on mid sized props,

      my exocet is probably going to be built later in the year with speed goals of 120mph+

      I know there was talk of a powerboat lake being used somewhere near Manchester? I don't think these boats would be very suited to the small SAW course we have

      It will be a lot more momentum requiring slowing down....
      Hpr 06 / 09 / 150 /185, Mhz Skater H45 hydro.
      Uk SAW record holder

      Comment

      • NativePaul
        Greased Weasel
        • Feb 2008
        • 2761

        #4
        Tony thanks very much for your input, do you know if it effected the boats attitude when he splayed them at all? or roughly what angle he splayed them to? When you say splay, I am guessing they went to the outside? and whether it was effective? Parachutes are not something I have considered, do drag boats use them too? I am worried that when it touches the water it would scoop itself down immediately and rip the transom off

        vvviivvv, No not this year unfortunately all racing has been cancelled, hopefully next year though.

        Only Mini class boats are suited to the lakes we have had for the last decade or so, and then it doesn't matter as they are not suited to our one day event format with no golden hours.
        I have heard no talk, but it would be great to have a bigger lake. It will be a shame that a bunch of records hard fought for years will fall overnight to people playing a different game, but well worth it for a future of finally being comparable to the rest of the world and seeing how we actually are, probably still falling on our faces at first, but something to build on and showing a bright future ahead.
        Paul Upton-Taylor, Greased Weasel Racing.

        Comment

        • vvviivvv
          Fast Electric Addict!
          • May 2009
          • 1079

          #5
          unfortunate about all racing cancelled.

          records are there to be broken... I guess lots of the current records could be extended with a proper lake and the same boats that set them,


          Going back to your original post, my day job is driving around a rather large boat.. our crash stop procedure if above 16kts is the 2 outer azipods rotated in to 30 degrees with 30 rpms and once below 16kts we rotate them the full whack and add more RPM.. below 10kts we used to use 'inboard 90' to slow down but bearings are very delicate and we tend not to do it anymore. They are tractor pods..
          probably not much use for your application but the drag definitely helps, we can stop in just over a nautical mile from 24kts. - albeit with a lot of shaking and a high % chance of doing damage... like we discovered after sea trials.
          Hpr 06 / 09 / 150 /185, Mhz Skater H45 hydro.
          Uk SAW record holder

          Comment

          • 785boats
            Wet Track Racing
            • Nov 2008
            • 3169

            #6
            Paul.
            The Bluebird had a rod that was dropped on the transom as a brake after they added the more powerful jet, because they were running out of room on Coniston water.
            Here's a video of a model of it.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tFoO_lW9uo
            See the danger. THEN DO IT ANYWAY!!!
            http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...hp?albumid=319
            http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...hp?albumid=320

            Comment

            • HTVboats
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2011
              • 803

              #7
              Back in the 80's full sized tunnels used a pair if air cylinders on the rear of the sponsons that had 1" stainless balls attached. Hit a button and they dropped and tripped and wet out the hull in a brake like action. They got outlawed as guys on the inside thought they could run hard in a turn and when air systems malfunctioned they ran over the outside boat. Not sure a drop down at high speeds wouldn't lift the transom and possibly stuff the bow.
              Mic

              Mic Halbrehder
              IMPBA 8656
              NAMBA 1414

              Comment

              • NativePaul
                Greased Weasel
                • Feb 2008
                • 2761

                #8
                Thanks for the info Paul, also, Bugger I thought I had invented that, but I must have just been dragging it out of some deep memory ,interesting to see that it is domed too, which ties in with Mic's info, thanks Mic. If I go down that route it will be domed and not chamfered as I had invisiged.
                Paul Upton-Taylor, Greased Weasel Racing.

                Comment

                • RaceMechaniX
                  Fast Electric Addict!
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 2821

                  #9
                  Hello Paul,

                  I guess stabilizer fin airbrakes will not be terribly effective given the length you need to slow down in.
                  Watch this video of a drag airboat. I believe they have some type of diverter elbow like a rooster shooter that slows them down. Forward to 7:40 mark.


                  St

                  I think twin rudders that open up in opposite directions will cause the tail to blow and stuff the nose.

                  -Tyler
                  Tyler Garrard
                  NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
                  T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

                  Comment

                  • RaceMechaniX
                    Fast Electric Addict!
                    • Sep 2007
                    • 2821

                    #10
                    I hope Chris Harris will not mind me sharing the pics of his S hydro. He had airbrakes above the rearward booms.
                    Picture2.jpg

                    The only other idea I had was having a large secondary flap that was servo actuated and popped up near the center of lift to add a lot of downforce without effecting the fore/aft balance. Imagine having a second radio box lid that was hinged at the front and laid flat during a run, but popped up via a servo.

                    -Tyler
                    Tyler Garrard
                    NAMBA 639/IMPBA 20525
                    T-Hydro @ 142.94mph former WR

                    Comment

                    • Fluid
                      Fast and Furious
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 8012

                      #11
                      Use a car controller and apply the brakes. This worked great for SAW riggers in the 1990s prior to BL motor use and is not mechanical so if the ESC works - the brakes work. A big SAW prop has a lot of drag when stopped.


                      .
                      ERROR 403 - This is not the page you are looking for

                      Comment

                      • Ch.Lucas
                        Member
                        • Nov 2014
                        • 66

                        #12
                        Hi,
                        like Mic wrote , i remember the aicylinder breaks , i have seen mounted on Renato Molinaris tunnelhull. When he didnˋt slow down in front of a corner and all other fall back and then he hit the breaks and turns the boat to accelerat it direct . Very crazy . He had this cylinder direct behind the sponson . I think some rods at the strut or propshat wedge will do the job . Maybe build a mount tha can be angeled to find a pisition that will give sligtly downforce on the transom. We have tought about to make the rudder shaft longer and make it moveable to run it deeper after the straight , with a bigger dia ruddershaft it will break better.
                        And yes a stand still prop will break to but will lift the transom. A counter prop drive will have higher drag and can use a less drag ruder.
                        Maybe my diske ruder that has no drag .

                        Happy Amps Christian
                        Happy Amps Christian

                        Comment

                        • properchopper
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 6968

                          #13
                          Tony thanks very much for your input, do you know if it effected the boats attitude when he splayed them at all? or roughly what angle he splayed them to? When you say splay, I am guessing they went to the outside? and whether it was effective?


                          Paul, sorry for the late reply - I don't remember which way they splayed - that was my first big SAWs and I was so intimidated that I hid under the table most of the time.
                          2008 NAMBA P-Mono & P-Offshore Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder; '15 P-Cat, P-Ltd Cat 2-Lap
                          2009/2010 NAMBA P-Sport Hydro Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder, '13 SCSTA P-Ltd Cat High Points
                          '11 NAMBA [P-Ltd] : Mono, Offshore, OPC, Sport Hydro; '06 LSO, '12,'13,'14 P Ltd Cat /Mono

                          Comment

                          • trigger
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 853

                            #14
                            Not sure where in the uk you’re based, but if it helps have you ever tried Nottingham’s regatta pond - Holme Pierrepoint, it’s a 2000meter pond only used for rowing events. It’s council owned last I knew, When I lived there, there were actual people based there at one end who ran and operated the pond, friendly folks.

                            Comment

                            • vvviivvv
                              Fast Electric Addict!
                              • May 2009
                              • 1079

                              #15
                              I did some googling also...

                              we have plenty of suitable lakes for a good SAW event,

                              Peterborough and Nottingham look perfect if permission would be granted.. also rather central?



                              Hpr 06 / 09 / 150 /185, Mhz Skater H45 hydro.
                              Uk SAW record holder

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