How to regulate FE power in the future?

[HTVboats]

Another thread got away from the original premise and into some how and why FE has made rule choices. Keep in mind FE equipment is constantly evolving. Brushed to brushless, battery from lead acid to NiCad/NiMH and now lithium which is evolving also.
Internal combustion motorsports has it easy to limit fuel type and displacement. For boats add hull types and you have classes. For FE you cant just use voltage alone how do you level the field? Looks like length was added to voltage limits as power is not limited by voltage alone as amps and cost just go up making "wallet racing". Limiting battery MAmps would be great but so hard to tech and new improved batteries are going to come along with electric being the green alternative. Battery weight? Nope again they are going to get lighter and more compact power in the near and distant future.
Auto racing full size FE is coming. On the model side cars and planes are in the same boat as us (no pun) with how to level competition.
We are seeing that size of motors is a possible alternative as limited classes make sense for competition and cost. Could this be a way to make class structure verses N-P-Q-S-T? Just for sake of argument what if we went to motor size limits? Say for sake of argument 1. 36X60mm 2. 40X84mm 3. 40xunlimited length. 4. 56Xunlimited? ABCD F1,F2.F3.F4 whatever you want to designate. 4 classes of power with or without battery/voltage added. Could it work? and why not?
Add any other ideas you have. With all due respect to the guys who set up the basics for rules racing is evolving from horses to IC and now FE which is in its infancy technologically. Changes need to be made to keep pace. We can't just say that's how it is or it has always been.
Mic

[Peter A]

Mic, I like the way you think. So often things stay the way they are because some do not want to change, or the experience (unpleasant?) of past changes is to be avoided if at all possible. You are absolutely correct in the continued evolving of FE technology, and it is I think a wise thing to be looking ahead as to how the changes can be dealt with. I am sure that there are a number of differing thoughts, ideas and opinions out there, just as there are experienced racers who really do know their stuff. I think this could be a really interesting discussion, especially if the aim is to keep some affordability in racing.
Looking at classes, as far as oval racing goes, is the experience there that P, Q and T are the most popular for racing?
N is pretty much a waste of time due to the cost of getting any real performance out of it, you may as well run P.
S is sort of an inbetween Q and T, sorta like you could go either way otherwise.
Just the way I see it. There is no issue having these classes on the books for records though. Is it better to focus on classes that are well established and supported for events? With the different hull types it can still make for quite a lot of racing, and fast exciting racing at that without needing massive budgets.
My first thoughts.

[Fluid]

There is no “S” oval class in NAMBA, it really makes no sense today. We have too many classes as it is (IMHO). I can’t see a good method to regulate power like fuel does, but voltage has to be part of the equation. Including motor size in the equation might make sense, but it does not eliminate ‘wallet racing’. Some will consider the motor as expendable and will pull excess amps to get the power they want even if the motor only lasts one day of racing. (We've seen this in Limited racing occasionally) I’m afraid that the only “perfect” solution is restrictor plate racing, with an amp limiter in the mix. But that has its own issues.

[NativePaul]

With electronic power limiters or energy limiters. It seems like the only way to ensure that everyone has the same power to me.

I race with Naviga who used battery weight to limit power, but while it does limit the power disparity to some extent wasn't a perfect solution, as there is a battery with more capacity for the weight every year so if you have the wallet for the latest cells you have an advantage, and also those with deep wallets or sponsorship can drain the cells right down to 3V/cell wrecking a pack every few runs but getting a significant power advantage over those that need to make their cells last a season or more (this could have been alleviated by mandating a minimum voltage of 3.7V/cell instead of the 3V we started with or the 3.3V we have now.
Locally we saw the expense of the ever changing battery tech and the price of needing the latest and greatest, so in the UK we added batteries with mAh limits as additional alternatives to the Naviga ruleset, there are still better batteries out year on year, but at least to us that are doing 6 minute endurance races the improvements in internal resistance are a much smaller advantage than the improvements in capacity (We know mAh is not practicably techable, but A, FE racing has a pretty small group of racers in the UK and we don't think we have anyone that would cheat, and B as a group we are pretty knowledgeable about batteries, if someone tried to relablel a bigger pack it would be spotted pretty quick. They still have the issue of the 3.3V/cell minimum voltage, but at least the high rate cells you can competitively use with a mAh limit are a bit more robust.
Naviga knew there are issues with all methods and put a call out for manufactures to come up with energy limiters that could electronically restrict energy used during a race to a set programmable limit with an accuracy of less than 1 percent, 3 manufacturers came forward and there was a year of competitive testing within individual countries, and they were voted in and allowed to compete in Naviga competitions from the 2018 season, there has been independant electrical testing of the limiters as well as competitive testing, all 3 were within their quoted 1%, and using oversize budget batteries it has allowed parity with folk that have a much larger budget. We still have the battery weight option, but I am sure it wont be long before it will be limiters only. Using limiters this year I have had some of the closest racing I have ever had, with several boats being on the same straight after a 30ish lap race on multiple occasions it really has proven itself to me.

Formula E Use electronic power limiters to regulate power with a 110KW limit and a 25KW push to pass.

Model cars have limited and Open classes, limited motors have specced can diameter, can length, rotor diameter, rotor length, shaft size, stator resistance, stator length, pole count, number of turns, number of strands, shape of wire, diameter of wire, insulation placement, lamination thickness, they must also be Y wind and sensored. Many of those lfactors are also specced for "Open motors", and they have voltage limits too, but traction is the big limiter to many classes, a bit like hull length limits, it is possible to overpower a car or boat within the rules, but ultimately pointless.

Model Planes have used electronic limiters since the 2008. Electronic power limiters for F5D, and electronic energy limiters for F5B and F5F.

Specing 1 thing doesnt work IMO, whatever you spec, some will be more willing to push it to its limits and gain advantage over those less willing/able to do so. The only way a speced class really works is if you spec everything, speced battery, motor ESC and carbon (so there are no tweaks) prop, if the right combo is chosen everything runs well within its limits, everyone has the same power and there is no advantage to be had from deep pockets.

[Doug Smock]

There is no “S” oval class in NAMBA, it really makes no sense today. We have too many classes as it is (IMHO). I can’t see a good method to regulate power like fuel does, but voltage has to be part of the equation. Including motor size in the equation might make sense, but it does not eliminate ‘wallet racing’. Some will consider the motor as expendable and will pull excess amps to get the power they want even if the motor only lasts one day of racing. (We've seen this in Limited racing occasionally) I’m afraid that the only “perfect” solution is restrictor plate racing, with an amp limiter in the mix. But that has its own issues.

I agree.
A motor can size debate per voltage and boat class should be a hoot. I think I'll do my very best to sit that out.

The IMPBA kept S around for records, N too for that matter. Back in 07 or so when FE1-FE4 was proposed some folks were sideways in the road over the record aspect of those classes, and the fact that the entire record book would have been archived.

[Alfa Spirit]

Regulate ? Lenght, weight, voltage , etc .....

[HTVboats]

I guess part of regulation has to address cost. This is key tome for growth and new people entering the sport. How many kids 8-15 years old can afford to race. Not going to happen. My son has raced with me for over 30 years and now my grandson has joined. The only way we can afford to race is classes like stock or sport outboards in nitro and spec classes in FE. Now the nitro motors are $400+ to start and hulls $300+ so FE limited is looking a lot better. Not sure there are too many parents who can afford to buy Q and T equipment for their kids. So don't consider any restraints there and like was brought up just a few old men in those classes.
On to power limiters. What is the cost and can they be tampered with? Are these basically the equivalent of physical restrictor plates ala NASCAR?
I can see maybe more than one way of leveling is needed but I an against a total cookie cutter motor,ESC, boat and down to prop. The IROC approach ideally makes the driver the difference. Didn't work in IROC as they ran ovals against drivers who only ran road courses. I like choices on motors, props and hulls. Also fun to take something that doesn't break the bank and compete with open wallets.
Mic

[T.S.Davis]

Mic, you're suggesting a complete overhaul. It is odd the way ideas keep looping back around. Think the last total replacement attempt was 10 years ago now. Doug might be right. 07....ish. Doug, I still have some plaques that say FE-3 on them somewhere.

The likelihood of enacting change in either organization is very near zero Mic. Heck, IMPBA keeps classes just for the records and for 2 guys run them at SAW events twice a year. Are you thinking they'll throw out an entire rule structure and start over? Yer likely wrong if you are thinking so. I can't speak for NAMBA but it would shock me if you'll get them on board either.

As for "limited".......it isn't and never was intended to be a "stock" class. It was always only just that.....limited.

[NativePaul]

I don't know too much about the plane limiters other than that they were introduced in 2008, there was a couple of years of controversy and teething troubles, but are now universally held to be a much fairer, safer and cheaper solution. There are 2 power limiters available for F5D airplane pylon racing, 1 from Neu for $75 and 1 from SMmodellbau for aprox E130, but is also a datalogger with much more functionality than just a power limiter. There are also 2 energy limiters for F5B, F5J F5F and F1Q electric gliders, the same Uilog2 from SMmodellbau and a different one from Neu for $110.

The Energy limiters we use for Naviga FE boat racing are Mlm solutions e-lim for £75, MM modely MDLE-4 for eur80 and the Wozniak RC tech KLW 203 for around eur100.
They are switchable between 4 different limits with flashing LEDs to easily verify which of the 4 limits is being used We can run mini classes, 1 and Eco classes, 2 classes, and FSRE all on the same device, by swaping it between boats to save money. We chose 4 diferent limits as that covers all our classes, but the hardware remains the same no matter how many energy levels you wanted so you could potentially have a dozen or so to cover all the classes you have, all with different energy limits from the same device. 2 of the limiters rely on encrypted programming and restricted availability of programmers for security, the other is user programmable, but has an LCD with the energy limit in use displayed on it, at big races they are all reprogrammed by tech then the programming ports are sealed with tamper proof tape. locally we have them reprogrammed at the start of the season.
It is kinda similar to a restrictor plate, but much better. restrictor plates limit the airflow with a given pressure, if you can improve the exhaust scavenging or use a ram air intake you can get more than 1 bar at the plate and increase power, it also only provides any restriction to full RPM power, it does nothing to restrict the amount of torque you have under the curve, which unless you allow CVT gearboxes is hugely important. It is more like what a restrictor plate would want to be when it grows up, if it wasn't for those pesky physics.

[HTVboats]

Terry,
I have no delusions about total change. Been around too long to know changes are very slow. As you stated funny these issues keep coming up. Kind of like remodeling an old house. At some point it's better to just build a new one. I started this looking for understanding and different perspectives. Changes in time will happen and the more people know and understand the better.
Paul,
Thanks for the info. Not sure the racers I know of would be willing to absorb the costs of a limiter. I like the idea of reprograming and sealing ports but that puts a lot of extra work for officials that won't be enforced. If you have been around car racing you know there are more than a few that bend if not just break rules knowing a post race inspection won't happen. It is good the technology exists and is being used. Gives real experience to learn and build on.
Mic

[Doug Smock]

[QUOTE=T.S.Davis;735974 It is odd the way ideas keep looping back around. Think the last total replacement attempt was 10 years ago now. Doug might be right. 07....ish. Doug, I still have some plaques that say FE-3 on them somewhere.[/QUOTE]

It was 07.
Remember all the noise about this? I can still hear some of the guys (especially Capt. Ron) coming unglued. This wasn't the final draft of the FE1-4 proposal. I have it somewhere but can't find it.

Mic back then Tunnels were Cats, if you wanted to run O/B tunnels for records you had to run against Cats. Herb Stewart led the way in getting N-T O/B Tunnels on the books under the current rule set. He got it done and put the first records in the books just before he passed away.

Class Power Base for Electric Boats.

E-1, up to 7.4V, any single motor up to 13.5 ounces.

E-2, up to 14.8V, any single motor up to 13.5 ounces.

E-3, up to 22.2V, any single motor up to 2 pounds 4 ounces.

E-4, up to 40V, any size or amount of motors.

LSH/LSM, up to 14.8V 5000 mAh total capacity on board, any single 700 size brushed motor.

OPC Tunnel, up to 14.8V, any single motor up to 13.5 ounces.

1/8th Scale, up to 40V, any single motor.

All voltages are based on the NOMINAL manufacturers rating for cell type. A contestant will be responsible for supplying manufacturers cell data for the type they are using. Motor weight does NOT include the weight of a add-on cooling system. Integral cooling will be counted toward total motor weight.

Electric Hull Length Restrictions

E-1 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 27 inches in length.

E-2 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 34 inches in length.

E-3 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 40 inches in length.

E-4 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 60 inches in length.

E-1 Sport Hydro Max 27 inches

E-2 Sport Hydro 27 to 35 inches

E-3 Sport Hydro 35 to 40 inches

Sport Hydro's may have hardware mounted on transom

OPC Tunnel, All boats will be no more than 33 inches in length.

1/8th Scale, All boats shall be sized/built according to IMPBA Scale Unlimited rules section H-4.

No boat shall weigh over 25 pounds.

All voltages are based on the NOMINAL manufacturers rating for cell type. A contestant will be responsible for supplying manufacturers cell data for the type they are using. Motor weight does NOT include the weight of a add-on cooling system. Integral cooling will be counted toward total motor weight.

Electric Hull Length Restrictions

E-1 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 27 inches in length.

E-2 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 34 inches in length.

E-3 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 40 inches in length.

E-4 All mono, and tunnel boats will be no more than 60 inches in length.

E-1 Sport Hydro Max 27 inches

E-2 Sport Hydro 27 to 35 inches

E-3 Sport Hydro 35 to 40 inches

Sport Hydro's may have hardware mounted on transom

OPC Tunnel, All boats will be no more than 33 inches in length.

1/8th Scale, All boats shall be sized/built according to IMPBA Scale Unlimited rules section H-4.

Rigger hulls shall be a max of 60 inches for all classes.

[Doug Smock]

Here it is... more IMPBA FE history page 9 if anyone is interested. A mushroom cloud formed over Huntsville with this too.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/13ab5fee70d9d7cd2c982e136fa96d05?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Page 10..https://nebula.wsimg.com/230d63a06b6...&alloworigin=1

[HTVboats]

Doug,
Thanks for the info. Good to see and understand. I remember racing with Herb a good guy and tunnel boater. Watching one of his tunnels burn to the waterline in Brandon didn't help any converts to FE. He just was in the "whee" stage and loving the power.
With now 8 years in FE competition running limited full P & Q and S in heat racing and NPQS&T for records I have a better handle on power. Watts are power period whether you make them with low voltage high amps or higher voltage and lower amps. Voltage X amps = Watts. What I see is a reluctance to promote higher volts and in my mind we are shooting ourselves in the foot with high amp and ESC costs. Ergo I see regulating watts by size of the motor a better way than using a crutch like length limits to separate voltage classes. look at the "P" record times. In many hull configurations (not twin motors) and they are close or better than Q,S,&T. For heat racing the length limits just make it hard to run fast in stirred up or rough water.
N could be eliminated and S and T easily combined since they are basically more run as record classes than heat raced. Yes no problem here with archiving records. I would trade them in a heartbeat for a stable Spec rules class. We will see what shakes out with NAMBA as even local IMPBA clubs are adopting length and diameter for spec/limited classes. I could see a sport Q class with 36 or 40mm times X limit to bridge the gap from spec to full P,Q and above. What I see for growth at reasonable cost is addressing amps. Leopard, TP and others are making motors well under $200 to compete while ESC choices are not keeping pace. Lower cost means more new people. Spec/limited should be a lesson there.
Mic

[NativePaul]

Watts are power period whether you make them with low voltage high amps or higher voltage and lower amps. Voltage X amps = Watts. What I see is a reluctance to promote higher volts and in my mind we are shooting ourselves in the foot with high amp and ESC costs.

Limiters help there too, as you say the voltage caps are pretty irrelevant to power. Naviga N2 equivalent classes are 2-3s and P equivalent are 4-6s now, with most people choosing 3 and 6 for the smaller, lighter, and cheaper ESCs.

Even those loose limits are arbitrary and only really there from legacy, it makes no difference to the competition whether you get your watts or Watthours from voltage or ampage, Electra that covers the south of the UK region has a max voltage limit for all classes of 43V (due to insurance), and the system works fine, from the little 17.5" minis with 21 Wh available, to the .21+" sized hydro2s with 120Wh available.

[Speed3]

The motor can size need to be in the equation. A 4092 kV for kV can give another 3 to 5mph over a 4074.

Then battery capacity has to be included like p mono 6000 mah. The reason for let's say 6000mah is someone who like high kV motors may find they may need a small prop to endure a race heat. So battery capacity will impose an amp limit. So a higher kV need a smaller less efficient prop and a lower kV a larger more efficient prop.

Hull length can be within like 3 inches difference. For example you cannot race a 30 inch and 36 inch in the same class. Example revolt verses voracity. The revolt motor for motor, prop for prop will make the race unfair.