NAMBA and IMPBA Rules question.

[NativePaul]

Hi there, I know some of the basic the NAMBA and IMPBA rules, but I don't know the general race format, Here in the UK we normally do endurance racing, but we are introducing a sprint class for next year so as you guys 'n' galls have been sprint racing forever I thought your input would be helpful to us.

For our endurance racing we run 3 rounds with however many heats as are needed, add each driver's best 2 lap counts together, and places are awarded in lap count order highest firs, if more than one person has the same lap count times to finish last laps are added together along with any penalty times and the one with the lowest time wins.

I was thinking that we could have a qualifying and final round system with 2 rounds and a final, with the first 2 boats in each round entering the final, or if there is more than one heat, the first boat from each heat of each round entering the final. Which would result in a 2-4 boat final with 1 or 2 heats and 3-6 boats if there are 3 heats, in order to keep the final below our 6 boat per round maximum.

But doing it this way means that if there was 2 or more heats and someone was 2nd in their heat in both qualifying rounds they could be the second fastest boat but wouldn't make the final. We could do it by times and have the fastest boats from the rounds make the final, but then you could have someone that won both their rounds and was the fastest boat, but slowed down by a dead boat on the turn not making the final.

How do you run your sprints?

[Fluid]

Several ways. Usually no "final" but an accumulation of points per heat to determine the overall race winners. The total number of heats in the race may depend upon the number of classes/racers/time.

If if a "final" format is used, the racers entered in the final are determined by points earned in the previous heats. If there are a lot of entrants in the class, the final may include the top five racers based on points. Then a "consolation" heat is held with the remaining racers, and the winner of this heat can enter the final heat. Under these conditions the overall race placing is determined by the placement of racers in the final heat.


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[T.S.Davis]

Usually it's just an accumulation of points from as many rounds as you can manage in a day. That's the easiest way right out of the rule book.

A couple years in MI we used what we called a "shoot out" format. We would shuffle the heats every round so that racers with the highest points were together.

The beauty of this is that everyone is racing against boats more evenly matched. Plus, if you had a bad heat you still had a shot at a class because you might win some of those slower heats and get 400 points each time. So you took maybe a 4th in the first heat and ended up in a bit slower pack for round 2. Then you take a first and get back in with the faster guys again.

The fast guys never got a free pass in a heat. Most don't like being a lot faster than the other racers anyway. Lapping guys isn't racing really. Fighting for lanes at every turn. Having a guy hound you for a full mile. That's racing. Fun factor through the roof.

Shuffling the heats is a major pain in the behind but the racers did seem to like it. Nobody is sitting on the shore line for the last round either.

It's still just an accumulation of points for every heat but I think the fastest guys having to race each other to win has a certain purity to it.

[NativePaul]

I think we will only get 3 rounds in a race. Do you have a throw away race where your worst round doesn't count or do the scores from all rounds count? How many boats can you have in a heat, I'm guessing with your bigger lakes and courses it could be more than the 6 we have? What points are awarded for what places? how do you penalise driving infringements like a jump start or a missed buoy, time penalties, extra laps, or just disqualify them?

[T.S.Davis]

We toss out races for points at the end of our season. That's just for the club races though. At a sanctioned event there are no throw away heats.

1. Boats will score and accumulate points in order of their finish positions according to
the following table:
1st Place - 400 points 6th Place - 96 points
2nd Place - 300 points 7th Place - 72 points
3rd Place - 225 points 8th Place - 54 points
4th Place - 169 points Did Not Finish (DNF) - 25 points
5th Place - 127 points Did Not Start (DNS) - 0 points

If someone "jumps" the start they haven't actually started. Technically you can do multiple laps during the mill. The fuel guys might do 5 laps getting ready for the start. If you jump you go around again and your laps start after you cross the start line after the buzzer.

Cuts are different between NAMBA and IMPBA.

IMPBA charges you 50 points for a cut. NAMBA charges you a lap for a cut. Both have merit. In a tight race a lap penalty could take you from first to last. You would be inspired to not cut. 50 points is good for the guy that made the infraction.

Driving infractions are suppose to work the same way. A lane violation for instance should cost you a lap in IMPBA. If you take someone out there is a strong chance the CD will disqualify you. I confess this gets missed entirely too often. You really need multiple sets of experienced eyes to do it justice.

If you are taken out by someone and that person is DQ'd in the process you get 4th place points. Not much consolation when you are passing the first place boat and he takes you out in a panic but it's better than a stick in the eye.

2 cuts is a DQ. I think you can get to both rule books from the websites if you want. To get right to the heart of the race format look for the heat racing rules. I'm still learning the IMPBA format myself. I'm sure there are other differences I haven't stumbled onto yet.

[Chilli]

Here is some good reading for you Paul.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c47f14875b3aa14724f4c90166f6bd79?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[NativePaul]

Thanks for all your input so fay everyone, it is appreciated.

I read through the NAMBA rule book some years ago and found it very hard going in places, I must confess that after that I didn't even look for the IMPBA one, but it is so much simpler.

Do you often get boats lapping each other or is it pretty rare? We probably get more boats on different laps here than on the same one, but our lapcounts are 20-34 depending on class and boatspeed, so a lap is a much smaller proportion of the race.

[Chilli]

We do get lapped boats and sometimes it hard for the CD to keep track of with six boats running at once. Each driver has a pit man who stands behind him as a spotter. The pit man's most important job is to call out dead boats to the driver. If the driver hits a dead boat, he is instantly DQ'ed for the heat. The pit man also is the lap counter for his/her racer holding out fingers so the CD knows what lap he is on. You guys might have to use fingers and toes. LOL BTW- Penalties for cutting/touching buoys and lane infractions can be awarded any time the boat is on the course. Not just while racing.

[T.S.Davis]

Yeah, we've had racers disqualified after a heat seems to be over by hitting another boat.

A cut on the mill lap is also a penalty. Pretty sure that's true for both organizations even though the cost is different.

The thing that makes the lap penalty tough is that some guys max a setup right out. They have just enough battery or heat range to do the 1 mile plus a mill. That extra lap can be hard on the equipment. With the advent of LiPo we don't see that as often as we used to. Two penalties back then.......yuck. In that regard IMPBA's penalty system is much more boater friendly.

I've always wondered about the 50 points deduction. Why not 101 points deduction for the first penalty/cut so that you can't have a cut and still place first in a heat? Then the second cut could be 75 points which would push you to third. Etc.

[Ken Haines]

A couple years in MI we used what we called a "shoot out" format. We would shuffle the heats every round so that racers with the highest points were together.

The beauty of this is that everyone is racing against boats more evenly matched. Plus, if you had a bad heat you still had a shot at a class because you might win some of those slower heats and get 400 points each time. So you took maybe a 4th in the first heat and ended up in a bit slower pack for round 2. Then you take a first and get back in with the faster guys again.

The fast guys never got a free pass in a heat. Most don't like being a lot faster than the other racers anyway. Lapping guys isn't racing really. Fighting for lanes at every turn. Having a guy hound you for a full mile. That's racing. Fun factor through the roof.

Shuffling the heats is a major pain in the behind but the racers did seem to like it. Nobody is sitting on the shore line for the last round either.

It's still just an accumulation of points for every heat but I think the fastest guys having to race each other to win has a certain purity to it.

We have run that format at our pond from time to time.
I wonder how that would work at the Michigan Cup.
I guess in the really large 20 boat classes it would work
against a guy who is not that fast but just very consistent.
However this would certainly work well in any 2 heat classes....
running the 3rd round based on the current standings.
hmmmm

[NativePaul]

We disqualify boats that hit dead boats in our endurance racing too, so that is a foregone conclusion.

We have already decided on doing our usual 10 second mill, going across the course to the top right and around the right hand side to the start/finish line half way down the front straight. but there several ideas for mills or lack of them, so we will see how it goes with it.

I agree about the close racing, a close race to get out of last place is more fun than walking a win. Which is what attracted me to the final system, but a points based system and a shuffled final round could be great as well if we can do it, getting everyone to change there numbers at short notice could be a PITA.

We have a "lap counter" duty who uses a counting board with push button counters for each boat when endurance racing, so keeping track of the laps should be no problem.

This is not something we are thinking of changing so not really relevant here. We have 80x80mm vertical white number boards with 70mm high numbers 10+mm thick thick on our boats so we can easily tell who has crossed the line or infracted, but I have noticed on videos that you don't seem to use numbers, transponders can take care of the laps and timing, but I am baffled as to how you keep track of driving infractions, especially in the P-spec classes when you may have 2 or more identical RTRs.

I prefer the IMPBA version with a point deduction, as I think a lap for the first buoy is a bit harsh.

[Brewbud]

Are Le Mans starts ever used at any of the races? I see it as an option in the NAMBA rule book.

[properchopper]

Yeah, we've had racers disqualified after a heat seems to be over by hitting another boat.

A cut on the mill lap is also a penalty. Pretty sure that's true for both organizations even though the cost is different.

The thing that makes the lap penalty tough is that some guys max a setup right out. They have just enough battery or heat range to do the 1 mile plus a mill. That extra lap can be hard on the equipment. With the advent of LiPo we don't see that as often as we used to. Two penalties back then.......yuck. In that regard IMPBA's penalty system is much more boater friendly.

I've always wondered about the 50 points deduction. Why not 101 points deduction for the first penalty/cut so that you can't have a cut and still place first in a heat? Then the second cut could be 75 points which would push you to third. Etc.

Our District awards a one lap penalty for a mill buoy cut. I don't like it. Seems that a mill cut doesn't necessarily give a meaningful unfair advantage during the jockeying. If a cut during the race gets you inside someone holding tight to lane one or just plane shortens the course,that makes sense.

When all but one club sponsors, there's a 30 second full mill, one lap for any cut, and pull to the middle at the finish. Lately the combined Nitro/FE events the FE classes require a full "cool down" lap after the finish which (especially when the air temp soars) could exasperate the heat damage potential i.e. mill, 6 laps, penalty lap, cooldown. Yikes. In fairness, the "bring 'em in" signal is given after the first three places finish.



Are Le Mans starts ever used at any of the races? I see it as an option in the NAMBA rule book.



We did this at WW IV or thereabouts. I loved it ; a total gigglefest and the first turn was a serious "clusterkadiddle." Not sure why it isn't done more (in the name of max grins.) A bit hard on the "rub rails" 'tho

[oscarel]

Are Le Mans starts ever used at any of the races? I see it as an option in the NAMBA rule book.

We do with the spec tunnels.

[NativePaul]

Interestingly we differ on buoy strikes we give the benefit of the doubt to strikes and don't penalise for it, hitting it is penalty enough.

What is a le Mans start? Boats on a table in the pits and on the start signal you grab your boat run to the launch area chuck it in and go?