Watercooling and flow: is there such a thing as too much flow??

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  • nichismo
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2015
    • 393

    #1

    Watercooling and flow: is there such a thing as too much flow??

    Okay I was close to bumping an old thread for something I read a few times earlier in the discussion really irked me, however I felt it would possibly be a positive thing if some interesting concepts and theories were brought to the table. So I decided to just make a new thread instead. Hopefully it just provides a medium for good healthy debate, and I always enjoy a good discussion on fluid dynamics.

    Guys, you dont need to have run several world class boats or been in a certain industry of work and education to draw an accurate conclusion with their boats watercooling setup. Its pretty simple to generally understand how thermal and fluid convention are related when it comes to heat/expelling heat. If were going to play that game, then Id like to mention that I build custom high end computers and all of them have sophisticated custom watercooling setups that I always design. But regardless, the overall perspective of how they work is extremely simple, and our RC boat watercooling setups are..... ridiculously more simple than those.

    To believe that having "too much flow" is ludicrous ONLY in the sense that one assumes it somehow doesn't leave enough time for heat transfer to take place. Guys, if water touches a fire, that fire is going to suffer as a result, period. To act as if the fire would somehow be unaffected if the said water was somehow able to pass through it fast enough is silly.

    Now, when one of you guys experience what appears to be a drop in cooling performance simultaneously with an improvement in flow, I promise you it is because of a lack or decrease in pressure. For example, when anyone builds a watercooling loop (loop is important here), the key components are the item being cooled/cooler, radiator, pump, and reservoir. Without getting into the purposes of each, the reservoir specifically serves only one purpose (despite some elaborate or large reservoirs, these exist solely for looks or ergonomics) which is to bleed air out and render the entire loop under pressure. Since both RC boat watercooling and PC watercooling dont actually have water flowing in/throughout the heat producer, the expelling of air is absolutely critical for thermal exchange to occur between the surfaces that are hot. Additionally, since our RC boat watercooling setups are NOT a loop and the water outlet is always exposed openly in order for us to see and confirm the flow, they are much much more susceptible to air entering and negatively effecting cooling performance.

    Like I have heard from many that I must make sure that I have a pretty consistent application of full or near full throttle throughout the duration of my runs due to the need to make sure their is adequate water cooling the components inside. But thats not adequate water, thats adequate flow. And that rings true entirely.

    BTW, heres a picture of my personal computer, and another that i just finished for my most recent customer :) if anyone wants or knows someone who works in software, web design, 3D rendering, is a gamer, or basically just needs a high end custom computer, point them my way!
    Attached Files
    BIG BOY HYDROPLANES----My first RC boat and build project to boot: (and more content in my profile gallery!) ---- http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...proposed-setup
  • lt130th
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2014
    • 858

    #2
    You're correct.

    <== Rocket scientist.

    Comment

    • dmitry100
      Fast Electric Addict!
      • Mar 2015
      • 1264

      #3
      Well, I've always thought it could be a good idea to install a small pump that would help pump water throughout while the boat is idle... Without slowing down water flow from a full throttle run. Even a few seconds before making another pass is all it would take to cool down everything big time.

      A pump like this would be installed on the cooling line so that water cooling can work on its own that would work as a failsafe incase pump battery is dead, etc and provide additional consistent pressure on top of everything.

      (Cooling line - Outlet)
      |
      | > Pump Here
      |
      (Inlet)

      Comment

      • lt130th
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 858

        #4
        Originally posted by dmitry100
        Well, I've always thought it could be a good idea to install a small pump that would help pump water throughout while the boat is idle... Without slowing down water flow from a full throttle run. Even a few seconds before making another pass is all it would take to cool down everything big time.

        A pump like this would be installed on the cooling line so that water cooling can work on its own that would work as a failsafe incase pump battery is dead, etc and provide additional consistent pressure on top of everything.

        (Cooling line - Outlet)
        |
        | > Pump Here
        |
        (Inlet)
        The issue this creates has to do with energy. First you need to power that pump. That means adding the weight of an extra battery, unless you want to cut your run time down from 7 minutes to 5 minutes by running a pump off your main LiPo cells. That weight means your powertrain is being taxed a little more which will also shorten your run time & increase the heat in the electronics that you were trying to make cooler. Also the pump & its power source will add temp's to the interior of the hull. Everything has a cost when dealing with energy, and you never get out what you put in, due to friction & other variables. So you try to do something to improve a system but only make things worse or no change at all...unless you want to drag a weightless, frictionless barge behind the boat, covered in solar cells, & mount the pump outside the hull...
        Last edited by lt130th; 07-19-2015, 09:25 PM.

        Comment

        • kfxguy
          Fast Electric Addict!
          • Oct 2013
          • 8746

          #5
          H
          Originally posted by nichismo
          Okay I was close to bumping an old thread for something I read a few times earlier in the discussion really irked me, however I felt it would possibly be a positive thing if some interesting concepts and theories were brought to the table. So I decided to just make a new thread instead. Hopefully it just provides a medium for good healthy debate, and I always enjoy a good discussion on fluid dynamics.

          Guys, you dont need to have run several world class boats or been in a certain industry of work and education to draw an accurate conclusion with their boats watercooling setup. Its pretty simple to generally understand how thermal and fluid convention are related when it comes to heat/expelling heat. If were going to play that game, then Id like to mention that I build custom high end computers and all of them have sophisticated custom watercooling setups that I always design. But regardless, the overall perspective of how they work is extremely simple, and our RC boat watercooling setups are..... ridiculously more simple than those.

          To believe that having "too much flow" is ludicrous ONLY in the sense that one assumes it somehow doesn't leave enough time for heat transfer to take place. Guys, if water touches a fire, that fire is going to suffer as a result, period. To act as if the fire would somehow be unaffected if the said water was somehow able to pass through it fast enough is silly.

          Now, when one of you guys experience what appears to be a drop in cooling performance simultaneously with an improvement in flow, I promise you it is because of a lack or decrease in pressure. For example, when anyone builds a watercooling loop (loop is important here), the key components are the item being cooled/cooler, radiator, pump, and reservoir. Without getting into the purposes of each, the reservoir specifically serves only one purpose (despite some elaborate or large reservoirs, these exist solely for looks or ergonomics) which is to bleed air out and render the entire loop under pressure. Since both RC boat watercooling and PC watercooling dont actually have water flowing in/throughout the heat producer, the expelling of air is absolutely critical for thermal exchange to occur between the surfaces that are hot. Additionally, since our RC boat watercooling setups are NOT a loop and the water outlet is always exposed openly in order for us to see and confirm the flow, they are much much more susceptible to air entering and negatively effecting cooling performance.

          Like I have heard from many that I must make sure that I have a pretty consistent application of full or near full throttle throughout the duration of my runs due to the need to make sure their is adequate water cooling the components inside. But thats not adequate water, thats adequate flow. And that rings true entirely.

          BTW, heres a picture of my personal computer, and another that i just finished for my most recent customer :) if anyone wants or knows someone who works in software, web design, 3D rendering, is a gamer, or basically just needs a high end custom computer, point them my way!

          When you throw water on a fire and it puts it out, it's displacing the oxygen. When water goes through the cooling system of a boat, it's carrying heat with it. So your example wasn't relevant.

          Oxygen in the cooling system. Hmmmm. Do you think maybe...as the water is being forced through the hoses, cooling jacket and Esc that air has a chance to build up? I don't. Let me explain why. This is the main example that I laugh at every time I read it. "You should make sure your inlet of your water jacket is low and the outlet is at the highest point so the water will contact the whole motor (or air will get trapped)" or something to that effect. Now. Do you really think for one second that if you point the nipples up, down or side to side it really makes a difference? Because we all know the water is going to take a straight path from the inlet to the outlet right? Lmao. No. It's going to fill up the jacket first, dispelling the air in the jacket and then once it's full of water it's going to come out that tiny exit fitting. This should be common sense. I've hooked up water lines backwards before and it made no difference. I've turned the fittings sideways. No difference. I'm not sure what the thinking is behind this but it does not matter as much as you think it does. Check this out....I'm commiting a cooling system sin with the way these are turned.....you think I'm worried about it? No. Yes they are side ways.




          32" carbon rivercat single 4s 102mph, 27” mini Rivercat 92mph, kbb34 91mph, jessej micro cat(too fast) was

          Comment

          • lt130th
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 858

            #6
            Originally posted by kfxguy
            When you throw water on a fire and it puts it out, it's displacing the oxygen.
            Actually, when you throw water on a traditional flame (not a chemical or electrical fire) the water undergoes a phase change by absorbing the heat energy from the fire & becomes a vapor. In the vapor phase, the water is heavier than hot air, which allows it to "sink" to the base of the flame, where the propellant & oxygen are reacting. Also, changing to a vapor, the water undergoes a rapid expansion, which is the part of the process that pushes oxygen away, stalling the reaction & snuffing out the flame. So you were half right, but there is a transfer of heat energy occuring also, just as the heat transferred by convection as the water passes through the cooling system in these boats.

            Give me some time & I'll see what I can do for an example of the air in the water jacket trapped by a low outlet...

            Comment

            • lt130th
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 858

              #7
              The water on a fire analogy in the OP's first post is trying to convey the heat transfer ability of water, otherwise known in thermodynamics as specific heat. That's the heat per unit mass required to raise the temperature of the material by one degree Celsius. Water's specific heat is 4 times greater than air, which is what makes water cooling better than air cooling. A more relatable analogy might be pouring room-temp water on a red-hot metal surface. The point is to show how quickly the water vaporizes...or how quickly it draws the heat energy from the hot surface. This rapid extraction of heat is also why hot metals are dipped in vats of cool water for strain hardening or cold hardening (material structures). Then the heat transfer part is all about the type (convection in this case) & rate of cooling/energy transfer as the water travels through the system.

              The best example I can come up with, on the fly, for the water jacket outlets is an air separator. Typically, in closed loop systems, the fluid enters the separator chamber near the top or at the bottom, and the air bubbles rise up to the top of the chamber where they're purged by a mechanical valve or siphoned off...then the scrubbed fluid exits the separator at the bottom. Our boats aren't a closed loop system, so the best way to let the air out of the chamber (being the water jacket, here) is to put the outlet at the top. Is an air bubble in a water jacket going to destroy a motor? I have no idea about that.

              Comment

              • dmitry100
                Fast Electric Addict!
                • Mar 2015
                • 1264

                #8
                kfxguy: But wouldn't it be better that the jacket gets filled up all the way to the top most part before it gets released by the top-most outlet since water is heavier than air? The air will probably come out quicker than the water allowing more water to stay in the jacket...

                But yea, I see your point as well. But maybe we need some data logs to compare :)

                Comment

                • tlandauer
                  Fast Electric Addict!
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 5666

                  #9
                  In our model RC boats, it's my opinion that adequate water flow is always desired. There is no such thing as too good of a flow rate.
                  It's been argued that if the water flows too quickly then it doesn't have time to absorb the heat, etc., etc.,......
                  All that is good and well, but if the cooling loop is not set up properly, then the benefits won't be realized.
                  I believe the happy guy will be the one with a good setup and good flow.
                  Please note that I am not discounting all the thoughtful reasoning and knowledge of thermo transfer theory. It's just that our boats are too small and simple to worry that much.
                  Just my $.02
                  Cheers!

                  Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk
                  Too many boats, not enough time...

                  Comment

                  • kfxguy
                    Fast Electric Addict!
                    • Oct 2013
                    • 8746

                    #10
                    Originally posted by dmitry100
                    kfxguy: But wouldn't it be better that the jacket gets filled up all the way to the top most part before it gets released by the top-most outlet since water is heavier than air? The air will probably come out quicker than the water allowing more water to stay in the jacket...

                    But yea, I see your point as well. But maybe we need some data logs to compare :)
                    I feel pretty confident that no matter what position the nipples are facing, it will push the excess air out of the jacket and fill will water. Air will compress, water won't...so it's going to push the air out.
                    32" carbon rivercat single 4s 102mph, 27” mini Rivercat 92mph, kbb34 91mph, jessej micro cat(too fast) was

                    Comment

                    • lt130th
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 858

                      #11
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3DciFrPqv0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

                      This video shows the general idea of how air bubbles could get trapped inside a cavity with an outlet too low to allow the air to escape. Watch what happens in the air separator as the air-charged water flows into it. Now, it could be possible the air bubbles stay small enough & the water passing through the jacket remain energized enough that the bubbles don't have a chance to collect, but I've pulled jackets off motors that weren't outletting at the top, and found crud accumulated in a pocket at the top or pitting & discoloration on the surface of the motor can, suggesting a void where water isn't reaching that pocket. It's been most noticeable in boats run in water with high salt content to leave this kind of evidence behind. An acrylic cylinder, two O-rings, two barbed nipples & a drill...got yourself a clear water jacket you can test with a garden hose to see what is really happening in there.

                      One important thing to note in that video is how the water level drops, being displaced by the growing air pocket, inside the separator. That's the function which operates the mechanical purge valve, but that's also the idea of what could potentially be happening in the water jacket (water level drops as air accumulates, reducing the surface area of the motor can in contact with the water). It would be an interesting experiment...especially since this topic comes up so frequently.
                      Last edited by lt130th; 07-20-2015, 08:45 PM.

                      Comment

                      • nichismo
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2015
                        • 393

                        #12
                        me too, I have pumps for my computers that are pretty small and could certainly fit inside a larger hull perhaps 55"+, but they are heavy and require alot of power. the flow rate is ridiculous though, far more than what our RC boats need.
                        BIG BOY HYDROPLANES----My first RC boat and build project to boot: (and more content in my profile gallery!) ---- http://forums.offshoreelectrics.com/...proposed-setup

                        Comment

                        • Doby
                          KANADA RULES!
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 7280

                          #13
                          More is better, but as long as it flows, that's all you need.
                          Grand River Marine Modellers
                          https://www.facebook.com/search/top/...ne%20modellers

                          Comment

                          • Jamey
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2015
                            • 199

                            #14
                            Surface water temps here are in the mid-90s on a typical July afternoon. Sort of limits the heat removal when the water starts out so warm. I wish I had room for a closed loop system with a tank I can add ice too lol

                            Comment

                            • lt130th
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 858

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jamey
                              Surface water temps here are in the mid-90s on a typical July afternoon. Sort of limits the heat removal when the water starts out so warm. I wish I had room for a closed loop system with a tank I can add ice too lol
                              How about a dry ice chamber with a single, coiled copper tubing inside...run the inlet lines to one end, & outlet the other end to the ESC('s) & motor(s). Fill with a few ounces of water & drop in some crushed, dry ice. Then you'll only have to worry about the condensation that may accumulate on the electronics on our 100+ degree F, 60% + humidity summer days.

                              OH, and allow it to vent the gases or you'll otherwise have a small bomb in your hull...

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