Local clubs.......P limited question

[Doug Smock]

I understand Mr. Davis.

Oh and for what's it's worth. If a club in the IMPBA were to host a Nats. I can't imagine that club offering the Limited classes and not (OMG I'm gonna say it) lol use power limits that don't include what you guys (NAMBA) are using at the time.

[T.S.Davis]

hahaha I understand Mr. Smock.

They must have you drugged. Step away from the morphine sir.

[DPeterson]

Fella's - Fella's - Fella's

I know you are all smarter than what is being continueally presented.

For the fun of it - lets re-cap.

1. NAMBA establishes National Rules based on the availability of rtr boats.
2. The rtr classes are blended with LSH, LSO etc to make them all P-Limited.
3. Three years later the availability of these rtr's are almost non-existant.
4. NAMBA member brings this to the attention of all of us and seeks a remedy.
5. Another NAMBA members says P-limited is not broken. (Huh?)
6. Another NAMBA member says to wait a couple years - more rtr's will be released for sale. (What-Wait?)

There is no doubt in my mind that the rtr offerings has contributed to some new racers. I am highly skeptical that P-Limited had to be designed around rtr offerings in order for this to happen. A rtr class on it's own would have achieved the same results and in my observations in my racing area may have contributed to better growth. Nobody in our vacinity can compete with Sean, Jeff and I in P-Limited with a rtr. They turn and run all the way home with their tail between their legs and never return. We spent an entire summer letting them win and it still did not work.

As far as P-Limited being the almighty saviour and growth area for electric racing. Yes the numbers indicate a higher particpation level. Now take these numbers and subract out what we lost with the defunct N2 and P classes. You will find a net value indicating a lateral movement. To back this up even more - the overall participation in racing is down, other than maybe a couple more club racers joining a couple clubs. I have traveled around to see the actual numbers dwindle over the last few years. Even the NAMBA Nats was far fewer racers than what was anticipated.

Not trying to pick a fight or ruffle feathers. The facts are evident. And who doesn't like a good debate. I know Terry does. Can't wait for winter.

Doug

[Brewbud]

I am new to FE. I have found this topic interesting. I commend you gentlemen on keeping the discussion civil.

Being an outsider, I am disappointed it is such an uphill battle to get (or keep) new classes going. From the outside it seems FE is growing - in part I am sure because there are just more places that will allow you to run. I love the idea of RTR classes. It seems that it would help the hobby grow even more. Hopefully even push some of the larger manufacturers to push the technology on what is available in a RTR - Similar to what auto racing did for cars in the 60s. I would think bragging rights could help sell boats.

Just some rambling from a newbie. Carry on.

Cheers,
Tab

[T.S.Davis]

I'll bite. You knew I would LOL You're not ruffling feathers. Some might think so but they don't know ya. We're cool.

1. That was from Dave and I. Submitted by me through our district. It was exactly what our club was running.
2. Pretty much yes.
3. Yep, that's true. Today.
4. That was me again. I didn't totally get a remedy but I did glean enough information to make suggestions to my little gang of hooligans.
6. In so asking I've found there are additional offerings that will be available soon. Likely by spring. They're not currently in the book but if they're close in performance they may be able to get included.
5. It IS broken in my opinion but I think it can be fixed and is worth doing so. We may still be in flux mid summer until the offerings can be compared. Just a guess there but I do know people.

It didn't have to be based on RTR offerings. It just should have been.

Is the fact that nobody in your area can compete with you guys a result of you being that good or is it that your not teaching them to be as good as you guys are? Were it not for the free information that Mike Ball provided our club many of us would not be as fast as we are in PLS. We share information, equipment, even boats. As result our whole gang is a contender every time we race. Nobody is burying the field in any class we run. Letting your locals win taught them ZERO. Teaching them to win is a different thing entirely.

What else? Oh, numbers. P classes were never as popular as limited. Neither were the N2 classes. This isn't just me guessing or perception. Keep in mind that I've been involved in the organizing of some of the largest FE races in NAMBA's lifetime.

There was some shifting though. That's true. Mostly from N2 and from what once was LSH and LSO. N2 stopped making sense because they're 2s2p with a high dollar power system in a less stable boat to go the same speed as limited. What for? Save yourself 250 bucks and finish more heats. P offshore was pretty big for a while. LSH was crazy. 2005 had 5 flights I think. Somewhere I have those old heat sheets.

Those two power levels weren't going to inspire a guy that's never owned a boat to jump in. Each has to be custom assembled. Are you really suggesting that a brand new guy, that owns no boats, standing on the shore, is going to be able to build himself a P mono? If a guy watching at our pond is interested he can buy a Lucas on Saturday and race it in 2 classes on Sunday. AND he'll get expert setup advice from national caliber racers that want him to be just as fast as they are.

I'm not sure which races you're traveling to. We did have less numbers than we anticipated for the 14 NATS. Guys bailed. It happens. We anticipated 50+ and ended up at 41 humans I believe. That's approximately a 127% increase over the 2013. Could blame that on the 13 venue though. Some didn't want to go west for a multitude of reasons. It was about 40% increase over our last nats here in MI in 2009.

Numbers were way down in MI between 2009 and 2014. Primarily because Fred and I were completely barbequed. Takes about a half dozen dedicated dudes and a some laborers to put together decent race and at least two of us were so anti-big-race it made no sense to try.

[Chilli]

I'll admit it. The IMPBA missed the boat.....

Seriously we're looking at possible changes in D12 over the winter. I don't think anything too drastic is going to happen this year, but we're watching to see what unfolds with you all. One thing is for sure. It's allot easier to deal with these isues on a local level. We haven't seen the failure rate in our equipment that many of you all have been seeing but I imagine we simply don't push our gear as hard. If the failure rate starts going up, we'll seriously consider either replacement motors or possibly doing away with the limited classes depending on what the racers in my district prefer. Some of my folks that have been doing this for a while are starting to get bored with the limited classes and are looking for new challenges.

[T.S.Davis]

Mike, I'm hopeful that Grims updates will make the motors more consistent. The problem with those particular motors was the manufacturing tolerance. One motor worked on a prop "X" and the next one might not. That's my perception at least. It's still a topic of much debate and not worth rehashing again.

That hiccup and the current fluctuation in available boats has made some of us aware of how dependent we are on a small supply. We need more options so that the market can float without it setting us back too bad.

It's true what you say about fixing things locally. That's what we'll do. Way easier to do and if you screw it up you haven't screwed up everybody. I like Darins motor list idea. I know of 3 motors I think would fit but I don't have any real data. Just specs. Those aren't available in a production boat though. Still on the fence about that goal. I think we need to put boats on the water together and see how they fair before we start messing around too much. I would think that by mid summer we should know how the PB's stack. If TFL spits one out we could try that. I'm not sure they're really interested in RTR though.

If we find something that works we can then worry about the actual rules. Which is pretty much lock step with what the rue change procedure is. Prove it, propose it, pass it, send it on to national.

[ray schrauwen]

If TFL spits one out we could try that. I'm not sure they're really interested in RTR though.

Doesn't TFL already have ARTR boats? All that is needed is a radio and some decent instructions no, yes??

[Chilli]

BTW - Kudos to all of you guys that are actually doing something to attempt to resolve the situation! I just hope as the regional groups come up with their own solutions, we don't get in a battle royal when trying to implement them on a national level. The Limited classes have been a great thing for the hobby!!

[T.S.Davis]

Doesn't TFL already have ARTR boats? All that is needed is a radio and some decent instructions no, yes??

Yes but it's not setup quite the way what we want. Tom and I have already come up with what we think makes sense and are waiting on the prototype. All shelf stuff. Just need the right package.

[Doby]

We need to get away from the "must be in a RTR mentality".....not exclude them by any means, but again, open the window for more options to supplement the current approved motors.

[DPeterson]

Terry

I'm not sure which races you're traveling to.

2014 Resume:
Scottsdale Arizona (NAMBA)
Racine Wisconsin (IMPBA) 4 times
Leonard Michigan (NAMBA)
Marquette Illinois (IMPBA)
Mendota Illinois (IMPBA)
Schaumburg Illinois (IMPBA)
Eagan Minnesota (IMPBA) cancelled going due to motors

You'd be surprised what you see and learn when you leave your nest.

Learned an awfull lot hanging with nitro and gas guy's. I am understanding why they still look down and laugh at electrics. Starting to giggle myself. Rules based on rtr's. "giggle" No more rtr's available. "giggle" I'll handling rtr boats. "giggle" Be careful not to hit a bouy or flip, It will break your boat. "giggle" Why are all those AQ motors burning up? "giggle" What do you electric guy's recommend we purchase to get started? We can't. "giggle"

Terry - you should take a job with the political pollsters. They are also really good at making various numbers look objectively favorable. LOL

2015 Travel plans: Any club looking looking for racer participation, less classes - more heats, and focused on fun. One word about an anal rtr motor rule and I'm out.

Carry on!

[T.S.Davis]

I see 2 FE races on your list. Same ones I went to.
The remainder are primarily fuel. So you're basing your numbers observations on nitro races.

Mmmmkaaaayy.

I guess FE numbers at nitro races are down. That's a bummer.

[DPeterson]

Oh Terry

Electrics represented about 40-50% of the entries at these sanctioned IMPBA mixed fuel races.

And again participation in electric is "down" in everyone I attended. Including Arizona and the expectations at Michigan. All facts. That is the basis for the "nest" comment. What happens in the "nest" does represent what is happening in the rest of racing world.

And I sure hope NAMBA had more than 2 FE races in 2014.

Doug

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, you sound like Pachmeyer. He always said the only way for me to know about electric racing was to go race open mono with gas guys. Say what?

I didn't dig em all up. There were 31 NAMBA FE races I could find.

I got tired of only going to a few races a year and having to travel to compete. Its pricey. I couldn't hang. You know how it gets. So I built a club. Some good guys and myself combined with some effort.

Guess how we did it?...........P limited sir. Tripled our numbers. D2 numbers are higher than ever. To the point that Waters commented on the increase.

If you had 20 competitive guys showing at your local puddle with 3 or more boats each for 7 races you might/maybe be less inclined to choose mixed races.

I also get to see some of these guys twice a week. That boater silliness and ribbing we both enjoy happens all the time. So much fun.