6 pole motors?

[Darin Jordan]

Personally I think limiting spec classes to the motors that be was a gunshot to the foot and I sorta saw this coming.

Ray,

The rules are clearly written to be inclusive... If other motors become available that can fit in with the current motors, then the CD can allow them. It's already being done. If there is a push by membership, and it can pass approval, then they could also get added to the list. That's been done already as well.

There HAVE to be SOME limitations... That's kind of the point...

[ray schrauwen]

I agree with you Darin. What are the other motors you are talking about?

I know people dislike my Europe references but, they have been successful for quite some time by limiting props and to a degree limiting motors as well but, not as limiting as us in the west regarding motors. Correct me if I am wrong but, would it not make sense to have a spec class or limited class that has WORLDWIDE rules instead of what we have now? I mean, there was just a "World Nationals" yes??! and how many western FE racers placed or even ran there? It seems that many people in the west are so scared to embrace at least one class from Europe that they are missing out on what is very exciting racing and not overtly expensive. Many use Feigao motors. They limit watts, weight, kv and maybe dimension for motors I think, it's been a while since I've looked or read about it.
There is a great opportunity here to bridge the Atlantic gap by taking on some Eastern influence. World Champion sounds much better than NAMBA champion or IMPBA champion imo.

[T.S.Davis]

Couple things.

If north america were the size of Ontario I guarantee an event labeled "World Championships" would get everyone in NA with a boat to the race. Simple geography. There's nothing stopping us from calling our race the "Universe" championships. It doesn't mean anything if the rest of the universe isn't inspired to attend. I don't know any racers that were even talking about going to the Naviga worlds. The guys that would even consider a trip like that would just build a dozen more boats to do it. When in Rome.

You're still ignoring the very very real every day occurance. Guy walks into a bar.......er....... I mean a hobby shop.........buys a Revolt and races with us on Sunday. That does not happen with a Naviga spec.

[T.S.Davis]

Also, I have no intention of changing or even suggesting a change to the rules.

Just hoping to find a comparable motor for semi-mass production without the typical design flaws. A 2030 with real leads. Dare to dream.

More competition and/or a motor choice that isn't disposable is good for the hobby.

[ray schrauwen]

Ya, I'll give up the soap box because I'm wrong... been reading more, shoulda did that before blithering about Naviga. Still find it odd that NAVIGA and NAMBA can't create a class that would make for a true international event.

You make good sense Terry. I know if anyone can get it done you will. I dunno if it's just the leads, they make motors inexpensive since they use thin wire to wind the motors because it is easier to wind. That's why motors like NEU, ARC and Mega last and cost more. The wires coming out the end are only an extension of the actual windings no? Wouldn't that mean the all the wire needs to be beefed up?
How about AQ or PB selling motors specifically for those racing? Too crazy? I dunno, sure would like to help you somehow...

[T.S.Davis]

Throw another motor in the mix and they'll have choice.

We did have ECO. Some ran it but it never really took off here. I suspect there were a number of reasons that elude me but I think part of the problem was that they didn't look like boats. Water bugs.

[T.S.Davis]

Let's say the difference in cost is $10 raw to jump from 16 to 12 gauge. Mark it up twice at 50% each time and it makes it to us for an additional $22.50. But it's reliable? Where do I sign up?

That's a crazy estimate. Its probably only the $2 I started at.

[ray schrauwen]

I noticed more AQ motors at the MI Cup, why do you suppose that is, less expensive? The suppo 1600kv motor sold by HK is very impressive, nice quality and size of wire and you can beat them up, I just don't care for the lower kv motors. They used to make a nice 2200kv motor, those things were wicked. With an outrunner, no you can't cool it much while running but, take off the cowl and it's cold in a lot less time than an inrunner. The heat doesn't continue to increase once the cowl is off. I tested a 1970kv 3740 briefly in my DF33 with a cooled motor mount and it had no issues turning a m445. I need more pond time with it though. I want to see if I can hurt it. I think a 47mm or larger will go on next time. Ramble...
Oh yeah, Venom Atomik makes a 2000kv outrunner in the right size range just never tried one since they are very expensive compared to Suppo.

[NativePaul]

I just came in to suggest a good 6 pole motor as the tread title suggested, I now get the feeling that there is an underlying current here that I was not aware of.

The Mega Wires are pretty thin too, though maybe it would be less of a problem with their efficiency and the one piece can/front end bell which offers the best passive air cooling I have seen on an inrunner. Incidentally my Hackers and Feiagos have much thicker wire, and my Neus thicker wire too, I am no motor designer and could well be wrong, but I suspect that for a given weight of copper in a motor, the higher the pole count the thinner your exit wires will have to be.

We call them Model shops here, our hobby shops are full of needlepoint, knitting, quilting, painting, cake decorating, card making, etc and sometimes airfix plastic kits. You are totally correct in that you can't walk into a model shop buy a revolt and race it on Sunday there are several reasons for this, the first being that our model shops are not open on Sundays, we are a Christian country and it is the Christian sabbath, while it is legal to open now, model shop workers are modellers and want to play with their cars, boats and planes on Sundays so they keep the doors locked and do just that. I have never seen a revolt in a model shop, or anywhere apart from on this forum, the only popular boat RTR boat there I have seen here is a mystic29 and I saw one in a shop once, most RTRs here are cheap, nasty toy grade, brushed and not really FE, but you can get a Joysway Offshore Warrior, which just requires safety loop fitting on Saturday night then you can race it in the Mini Mono class on Sunday, and although they are not competitive with the carbon/kevlar stepped hulls with well picked gear they are surprisingly good and a lot of fun out of the box, if you go to the right shops or order online/by phone you can get a wide range of Tenshock ARTRs covering the mini mono, mini hydro, mono1, hydro1 and Mono 2 classes, which again just need a safety loop adding before you are ready to race, this time you can select carbon too if you want and have some of the best monos available right out the door of the shop. quite why they don't factory fit them is beyond me as they sell a plug in loop for those that don't want to solder, it would only take 5 mins at the factory if that and save the newbie a job that may put them of the boat or even boating if they are really not "hands on".

I have said it on OSE before but it bears repeating, Pltd offshore and Mono2 are not very dissimilar classes, you could take either of the hulls (mono only from you)and them with your motor and our battery pack and safety loop and be legal for both USA and Naviga, I suspect that if you chose the right hull you could actually be pretty competitive in both with the same boat too.

I'm not keen on ECO myself either and, we have a whole region who don't even run it, like you it is on their books but only 1 person in that region is into it, so despite him living in a city with arguably the best surface drive FE boat club in the UK he drives 5 hours to come down south and race with us. I love the way they handle, and after seeing them for ages I bought one to have a play with but only ever used it a few times, its not the looks for me, you can get a Toysport Joker like Bill Oxydean's which looks pretty boatlike, but its the roostertail on surface drive boats that make fast boats so spectacular for me.


Some things have been said about the organisation that I race with which are simply not true and I feel the need to put the misinformation right.

Naviga classes are all "any motor", there are no watt, size, KV or weight limits to Naviga motors, except for the -1kg classes I guess, which mandate the boat to weigh under 1kg RTR, thus any motor that weighs over 1kg would be illegal (unless the boat was filled with helium). We used to have classes for stock 540s, and sealed can 700s back in the brushed days but we stopped speccing our motors, when we went brushless, they have long since been replaced with "any motor".

I see very few Feiago motors on the race circuit in the UK any more, and while I didn't lift the lid on every boat at the worlds, I did look inside a LOT and didn't see any. The cheap Chinese motor market has really blossomed in the last couple of years, Leopards are available at similar prices to Feiago here, and are vastly superior motors, and HK have many similarly themed 4 pole motors cheaper, so folk ditched Feiago pretty quick.

Don't think of Europe as eastern, the cold war divided the world into east and west with the west being democratic and the east being communist, even back then Europe was split between eastern and western Europe which is where the east/west name thing came from, calling Europe eastern is not only offensive to me in England, who have always been western but to those in or allied to the former USSR who struggled, protested, fought and in many cases died to rid themselves of communism and become independent countries once more.

There were western racers competing in every class and doing well in most classes apart from the steering events which while doing brilliantly by my standards, really do go to another level with professional training, and china being one of the last big rich communist countries that can afford a state funded university of model boat racing with full time builders, designers and racers tend to sweep the boards.

Please don't belittle us by comparing the Naviga world championships to a state race within USA, while many of the nations participating are indeed small like my home country of England some are very large like Russia and China, if you add up the participatory countries in the world championships they far outweigh your whole country both in terms of land mass and population. The fact that they are separate countries and sometimes separated not only by distance (and some traveled over 6000miles each way) but across seas, oceans and warzones negating the possibility of a road trip, encountering difficulties with languages, restrictive entry/exit visas, borders and insurances, just adding to the simple difficulty of distance you have with even your Nationals, do not underestimate the commitment of my friends, the Naviga racers. We would like to see some Americans come and more entrants from all over, after all we only had 800 this year and we have 2 weeks of racing, the more the merrier quite literally. What we don't want is you looking down on us just because you chose not to come.

[raptor347]

OK guys, here's a little info for you.

The geometry of a given motor design dictates the size of the slots/windows in the stator that the wire must pass through. Proper back iron thickness, tooth thickness and depth are fairly static in a 36mm 18 slot 6 pole motor. Your wire thickness is a function of window size. All of these 6 pole motors are going to have similar wire bundles exiting the case.

There are a couple ways to adjust this, but not a huge amount.

Terry,
Have you looked at the HET line? I've had great luck with the larger 4 pole motors. Here are a couple 36mm 6 pole motors I'd consider:

http://www.highendrc.com/index_eprod...products_id=49

http://www.highendrc.com/index_eprod...products_id=53

[raptor347]

Paul,
Well said.
I've won national championships and national high points. Nothing compares to my 5th place finish flying as a member of the US team at the 1998 F5D worlds. Competing at a big race is fun. Winning a big race Is really fun. Competing at the recognized world championship in any game is a different level.

There are a few of us who have quietly talked about going to the Worlds. We just haven't looked into what's involved. The flying model sports in the US are more organized when it comes to competing at the world level.

Terry,
What about running a naviga style hydro 2 class on offshore day? Since we're already running timed events that day. Endurance outrigger racing, I'd tune a boat up for that.

[NativePaul]

Thanks Brian, I was kinda worried about getting some hate for saying what I did, and hoping it didn't get misconstrued as me hating on you guys, so having you say that means a lot to me. I would love to meet you and the guys at Poland in 2015, if I knew you were coming I would find a UL1 motor somewhere so we could run P ltd hydro after hours one evening.

HET borrowed a lot from Mega when they built their 6 pole motors, I have had a couple and see them as a decent budget alternative to the original design, but they cant compete for quality or absolute power.

[T.S.Davis]

I have had a couple and see them as a decent budget alternative to the original design, but they cant compete for quality or absolute power.

That may well make them the perfect match to my inquiry.

[ray schrauwen]

I noticed it says to run approx. 18* timing and 16Khz freq. I wonder if running a UL-1 motor @ 16khz would help it any??

Nice motors.

[NativePaul]

I haven't noticed any Mega/HET cogging issues or the like at 8khz or lowest available, with castle phoenix, castle phoenix ice, Castle MMM, castle MMP, Swordfish120 ESCs (I like to run as slow switching frequency as I can to give the ESC an easier time), MEGA/HET do like a lot of timing often running cooler as well as faster at higher settings despite what some ESC manuals may say.