Motor Timing - "D" and "Y"

**Fluid** · 02-02-2013, 06:46 PM

Timing comments from Steve Neu:

"D winds : 0 - 4.75
Y winds : ~9.0 to a max of 15.0"

Motor wind type comments from the chief engineer at Aveox:

"At Aveox, we have essentially deemed the Deltas as secondary to Wye winds in any application, except where a very high degree of uniformity in both directions is very important. Things like robots that move in both directions equally put up with the efficiency losses. Since the motors are very insensitive to timing changes (unlike the Wye winds), you don't have great performance in one direction, and poor in another(without adjusting the timing). You have good performance in both. (but it is not worth the losses in a model).
So basically the Wye will spool up faster and reach its top RPM a bit faster than the Delta wound motor. The Delta wound motor also consumes more amperage than the Wye motor. If you want a hi-torque motor, the Wye-wind will let you do it with few turns. If you want speed, the Delta motor will let you do it without having to use difficult, thick wire or mess with parallel strands."

Comments from a highly experienced motor builder with more motor knowledge than about anyone on OSE. He makes a lot of sense and pretty much confirms my own experiences.

"Seriously, if there truly is a performance difference, it is too small to clearly see in tests. There are too many factors when winding two motors that offset the data (how uniform are the winds, is it packed with copper, how true is the shaft, how good is the bonding of the magnets). It's impossible to get a Wye-wind to have the EXACT same kV as the Delta-Wind, so you can't do a truly accurate comparison of efficiency.
As far as I'm concerned, it is a matter of convenience....Also, having a choice between LRK/ABC and Wye/Delta allows you to tailor-wind a motor without having to store 6 different gauges of wire. I have a stator that I know I can fully-pack 24 turns of 26-guage wire. I can decide the kV based on the style of winding and be confident that it's full of copper (because we DO know THAT affects efficiency). However, the debate will always continue. Why? Because it's FUN to experiment! "

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**ray schrauwen** · 02-09-2013, 02:34 PM

Really, Zero degrees will work on a D wind in 6 lap competition? If yo say yes, then when it thaws, I'll give it a go.

For me that would be .... COOL

Originally posted by Fluid

Timing comments from Steve Neu:

"D winds : 0 - 4.75
Y winds : ~9.0 to a max of 15.0"

Motor wind type comments from the chief engineer at Aveox:

"At Aveox, we have essentially deemed the Deltas as secondary to Wye winds in any application, except where a very high degree of uniformity in both directions is very important. Things like robots that move in both directions equally put up with the efficiency losses. Since the motors are very insensitive to timing changes (unlike the Wye winds), you don't have great performance in one direction, and poor in another(without adjusting the timing). You have good performance in both. (but it is not worth the losses in a model).
So basically the Wye will spool up faster and reach its top RPM a bit faster than the Delta wound motor. The Delta wound motor also consumes more amperage than the Wye motor. If you want a hi-torque motor, the Wye-wind will let you do it with few turns. If you want speed, the Delta motor will let you do it without having to use difficult, thick wire or mess with parallel strands."

Comments from a highly experienced motor builder with more motor knowledge than about anyone on OSE. He makes a lot of sense and pretty much confirms my own experiences.

"Seriously, if there truly is a performance difference, it is too small to clearly see in tests. There are too many factors when winding two motors that offset the data (how uniform are the winds, is it packed with copper, how true is the shaft, how good is the bonding of the magnets). It's impossible to get a Wye-wind to have the EXACT same kV as the Delta-Wind, so you can't do a truly accurate comparison of efficiency.
As far as I'm concerned, it is a matter of convenience....Also, having a choice between LRK/ABC and Wye/Delta allows you to tailor-wind a motor without having to store 6 different gauges of wire. I have a stator that I know I can fully-pack 24 turns of 26-guage wire. I can decide the kV based on the style of winding and be confident that it's full of copper (because we DO know THAT affects efficiency). However, the debate will always continue. Why? Because it's FUN to experiment! "

.

**Fluid** · 02-09-2013, 05:58 PM

Frankly I use 1 degree on mine, but if the maker of the motors says 0 is okay.....

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**Old Sloppy** · 02-09-2013, 06:24 PM

I thought 0 was for robots or rock crawlers. not for efficency.

Harry

**Heaving Earth** · 02-09-2013, 06:27 PM

I only use y wind motors. They've worked better for me so far

**Rumdog** · 02-09-2013, 06:28 PM

0 works fine with D winds. I use either 0 or 5 with really no noticeable difference.

**ray schrauwen** · 02-09-2013, 08:10 PM

Thanks Rumdog. Only a few esc's can you run at 1* timing like Castle or Schulze...

It would be a nice next step for Chinese esc's to use increments of 1* like Castle.

I'll try zero when it thaws out here in a couple months.

I emailed Hifei to ask them exactly what the heck Low, med & high timing is...

**ray schrauwen** · 02-09-2013, 08:12 PM

If I could find a Y wind 4092 in 1900kv -2100kv I'd buy it.. not including Neu that is. I know what that motor costs...

Originally posted by Heaving Earth

I only use y wind motors. They've worked better for me so far

**Heaving Earth** · 02-09-2013, 09:22 PM

Gotcha. The d winds are fine I'm sure..

**carlcisneros** · 02-10-2013, 03:59 PM

I use FC and Fliermodel esc's and they are 1 deg stepped programmable and work very nicely for me.

**Fluid** · 02-10-2013, 06:12 PM

The important thing is the motor size and Kv. The wind type means little. I have heard folks say that the Neu 1521/1.5D is an "amp hog". I have read folks say that the Castle 1717 is an "amp hog" - yet it is a "Y" wind motor. The term "amp hog" has no meaning out of context. The amperage a motor draws is related more to the load imposed than to the wind type.

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**grsboats** · 02-10-2013, 07:03 PM

Very well said Fluid! Gill

**ray schrauwen** · 02-10-2013, 07:19 PM

Hindsight for me, thanks for the reminder Carl...

Originally posted by carlcisneros

I use FC and Fliermodel esc's and they are 1 deg stepped programmable and work very nicely for me.