New Genesis Setup?

**JonD** · 09-07-2012, 03:37 AM

Welcome to OSE Forums!

Yes, most would agree that 6S is too much for 2075Kv motor. The stock motors that come with the Genesis have never been much good and seem to fail quickly - unless they have maybe changed the motors in more recent boats. Is it a 36mm or 40mm diameter motor? Overheating kills them - the magnets loose their magnetism.

To get good speed and reliability you will need to change the motor. Typical proven combinations have been Leopard 4074 220kV running on 4S, and 4082 1500-1600Kv on 6S.

Props Octura M445, M545, or M645 (two bladed). Sorry have no info on anyone running three bladed props on a Gensesis - others may know.

Your 180A Seaking ESC should be fine.

You will need to track down where the water is coming from. Often it is up through the stuffing tube around the flex shaft. If this is the case you should be able to see the tell tale marks of watery flex shaft grease (I assume you have had it out and greased it well?) splattered on the hatch cover and other areas "in line" with where the flex shaft exits the tube. 1/ Need to make sure your stuffing tube to strut connection is water tight. 2/ That you don't have a Teflon washer between strut and dog that is bigger than the diameter of outside of the strut. 3/ Put a short piece of silicone tube tight over the stuffer tube end inside the boat such that it also lightly contacts the flex shaft over about 3-5mm of length - this can make a very effective seal and prevent water and grease coming out.

Or you may have a small leak in the hull. You need to inspect it carefully, included screws and fittings that penetrate the hull. Do you tape the hatch down?

**SirBudman32** · 09-07-2012, 06:48 AM

I'm not sure about the motor you have, I've heard they are not very good. I have a Genesis with a CC1515 2200, T-180 running 2 5s 5000 batteries in it, I had a m440 3 bladed prop on it and it did not like it at all, I but a m445 on it and what a difference. I would say take the 3 blade off it and try a 2 bladed prop to start with.

**1945dave** · 09-07-2012, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by esadler

Hi guys. Dig the OSE Forums but haven't found exactly the info I'm looking for on my setup so decided to post my questions.

I have a new Genesis cat from HobbyKing with a stock 2075KV motor, 180Amp Seaking ESC, running 2 EA 3S 5000mAh Gens Ace and 2EA 3S 4000mAh HK Nanotech lipos in series. I've read on some of these forums that battery setup is too high RPMs for my motor. After my stock prop broke on the 3rd run, I have a Grim Racer 40x57-3blade prop that wants to cavitate when turning. My run times are decent, speed slow, and for the most part temps have been under 115 with the exception of last time a ran they were up into the 130s.

I've only run the boat a few times and would like to get it dialed in (good speed with decent run times) before I burn something up.

My questions are:
Motor? (without spending a fortune).
Prop?
Water inside hull after runs, not sure where its coming from?
Any other suggestions?

Welcome to the forum. I am not sure if the Genesis holds the record for being the subject of the most post or not but I would bet it is close if not. First every question and comment you made has been addressed at least once somewhere in the vast amount of print covering the Genesis somewhere on this forum. No problem though, I have no idea how to tell you where to find it all either. The stock motor is just that a stock entry level motor. Not bad quality but not the best quality by a long shot. It is definately a motor to wet your appetite and make you want more. There are several suppliers that even offer a "Genesis Up-Grade" kit consisting of a heavier flex cable (3/16th or .187 diameter) and a 40mm motor (Leopard 4074 2,000 kv) a new cable collet and mounting rings. The stock prop I guess was one of those plastic/nylon versions and I have no idea why they even bother to include this at all, they never work for longer than a few laps.

So just to support the remarks made by others 6S (22.2 volts) is way too much for the stock motor. The rule of thumb is to target the UNLOADED rpm's of a setup to something between 25,000 and 30,000 rpm's unless you are very rich, attempting a world straight a way record run or if you just don't give a flip. Multiply the kv value of your motor of choice times the number of cells times 3.7 volts per cell will show you your intial idea was setup to fail for targeting over 46,000 rpm's unloaded. 4S (14.8 volts) is what that motor was intended.

Regarding the best prop? JonD said it right. My favorite prop is the M445. The "M" series of Octura props are just slightly modified X445's. A much better prop for the Genesis than the "X" series but the "X" series are okay as well.

Regarding the water issue. A very common problem with almost all Genesis owners. I will look up a particular thread that addresses this specific issue and send it to you via private message. I went into some very detailed discussions with photos showing what I had to do. It can be fixed rather easily.

Good Luck

Dave

**HYDROJERRY** · 09-07-2012, 05:06 PM

Listen to Dave he no's what he's talking about!!! Just food for thought i run a genesis with the Leopard 4074 2200kv motor Swordfish 200a esc on 2x5s 5000 lipos parallel and a M445 prop running mid 50's....

**esadler** · 10-04-2012, 12:25 AM

Thanks for the input fellas!

I have been running 2x3S in series with my stock motor (2075kV) with no problems yet....I know...I know...against everyone's advice. I just haven't spent the $110 to upgrade to the Leopard as most of you suggested. With the current setup I don't (afraid to) go all out and I check temperatures 1 or 2 times a run....usually below 115F....reaching speeds around 50ish. I tried 2x2S and it seemed slow. I've tried the Graupner 45MM and Octura M445 props...can't tell much difference between the two. I need to tune the M445 a bit better I think.

The water issue has become much worse....i think its coming in through the shaft/stuffing tube. I tried to remove and grease the shaft but can't figure out how to get it out? Any advice? Do I need to take the entire strut off to remove and grease the flex? I am also considering upgrading to 3/16". Which parts do I need? I was looking for a thread to describe the process step by step but haven't found one yet.

Any advice/help would be much appreciated.

**1945dave** · 10-04-2012, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by esadler

The water issue has become much worse....i think its coming in through the shaft/stuffing tube. I tried to remove and grease the shaft but can't figure out how to get it out? Any advice? Do I need to take the entire strut off to remove and grease the flex? I am also considering upgrading to 3/16". Which parts do I need? I was looking for a thread to describe the process step by step but haven't found one yet.

This is what I experienced. Carefully protect or remove the rudder servo but leave the pushrod and linkage in place. Stand the boat on end however you can bottom end down and not likely to fall over. Fill the back end of the boat with water and watch where the water leaks out. You will be surprised. If the water leaks out it will also leak in the same way. My experience showed that over time the various holes through the transom had wallowed out a little and even though the bolts seemed tight that did not mean they had a good water seal. In my opinion if you just removed the bolts for both the strut and the rudder and then fill the holes with RTV sealant and rebolt everything nice and tight you will help your water issue a great deal. I took things a bit further and made aluminum plates that I used to provide a transom doubler and poured a ton of RTV under the plates before bolting everything up tight. Part of the reason I did this was because the nuts that are pressing against the transom from the inside through vibration mash into the thin plywood already there and the strut bracket gets loose. You can keep tightening the bolts until the nuts completely come through the transom, just know it will continue to get worse. Another observation that I had was that the strut mount did not sit flush against the transom. That is it rocked because the mounting surface is rounded not perfectly flat. So another step that I took was to sand the area where the strut bracket sits to reduce some of the rocker in that surface being careful to not sand down into the glass clothe under the gel coat too much.

Now all the steps you mentioned regarding the flex cable is correct. You need to each outing remove and dry off the flex shaft and yes that means removing the strut blade each time. That is because the prop shaft is locked in the strut and the flex cable just slides into the square drive end of the prop shaft. No big thing really. Wipe off the old greese and water and then regrease and reassemble, each session.

Yes the first upgrade to consider is going to the 3/16 flex shaft. Then when you get a one piece welded flex cable you can remove the shaft just by loosening the motor collet and slide the assembly out, dry off and regrease, reassemble presto. While all of this is really easy, sooner or later you will also lose the whole thing, prop, cable drive dog, prop nut etc. because somehow the cable will not be tightened enough inside the collet, so be careful. That won't happen with the square drive assembly in stock form. As far as step by step instructions, I guess I can do that first I will put together the shopping list. One flex shaft, one motor collet, one drive dog, one prop nut and a new 3/16th teflon bearing assembly for the stock strut. You would also need to remove the teflon liner and go without the liner. That is okay, many old farts like me never got too fuzzy over the teflon sleeves anyway.

You say you are running 6S and the temps never go beyond 115 degrees F. I find that hard to believe. I am not saying you are wrong just that is pretty unusal from my experiences. You need to read the battery temps at several points, then the end caps temp of the ESC and then the ESC itself (not the cooling plate) and last the motor ends. If none of this is over 115 if done quickly after opening the hatch you are a lucky skillful man. I have gotten into the low 50's on 4S and with 6S you should be closer to 60 mph with the props you mentioned. I have tried 6S a few times and my temps were much higher and my run times much shorter.

Last comments: Please understand the stock motor that comes with the Genesis is not a higher end, higher quality motor, like a Castle, Leopard, Neu, to mention some of the best. Still, What you gain by spending in round numbers $100.00 for a new motor will be a noticable increase in power, but also a decrease in run times. I am not against shopping for used stuff to save money and there are tons of articles and videos showing increased performance using other kinds of motors and setups. The good news these components are interchangeable. Nothing is considered a permanent or irreversable choice. One of the guys I run with seems to always have stuff for sale and is always buying used stuff from other guys just to try out and then sell again. He likes doing that and sometimes he hits on some combination that works for him.

Stay tuned.

Dave

**esadler** · 10-05-2012, 02:07 AM

Shaft upgrade parts list?

Thanks for the input dave. Not sure why my 6S setup is only doing 50ish (not floored....maybe 80-90% throttle)? Prop not tuned properly perhaps? weight too far forward? I will experiment with battery placement to see if that helps. So far I have been placing them where my battery stands are in my stock genesis and velcro strapped them in. I will also need to try the 4S again and track speed with gps for comparison. What do you think of the Graupner prop? Can I go bigger with the props? I also have a Octura X440 and X640 available to try.

I had some questions on your comments: "One flex shaft, one motor collet, one drive dog, one prop nut and a new 3/16th teflon bearing assembly for the stock strut. You would also need to remove the teflon liner and go without the liner."

Shaft:
I got the stock shaft out and cleaned and regreased. If I do decide to upgrade to the 3/16" flex, which one do I need? Will this one work?

http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...able-impulse31
Its the Proboat Impulse 31 upgrade. .150 dia with 3/16" prop shaft.
OR this:
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...oct-oc150L-24c
Is .150 dia ok or should I go with .187?

Motor collet: Will this one work?
http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/pro...oct-ocfhe5mm15

3/16th teflon bearing assembly for the stock strut?? I couldn't find this on OSE

Motor Upgrade -
I'm thinking I want to run 2x3S = 6S (most my lipos are 3S as thats what I run in my BL Emaxx) most of the time so which motor would you recommend? After the research I've done I'm thinking Leopard 4082 1600kV. I see it comes with a water cooling jacket. Will I need a new motor mount or will it just drop into the stock Genesis one? Could I run 4S with that motor or would it be slow?

Sorry for all the questions but any input would be much appreciated.

**SirBudman32** · 10-05-2012, 07:06 AM

This is what I put in my Genesis. I would suggest you go with the .187 flex I went with the .150 to start and have a prop at the bottom of the pond because of it, I did upgrade to the .187 and no more problem.

Product ID: ose-80085
Catamaran Strut and Rudder System
ose-80085-2_medium.JPG
(Enlarge)

Inline aluminum rudder and strut system for Catamarans with built in rudder water pickup. Features a nylon break away bolt on the rudder to reduce damage when hit by submerged objects.

Mounting plate measures 30mm (1.18") wide x 24mm (.95") tall.
Leading edge of the rudder blade measures 87mm (3.42")

Offered in three versions,
.150"(3.8mm) Cable with 3/16"(4.76mm) shaft
.187"(4.75) Cable with 3/16"(4.76mm) shaft
No Cable, this is for people with their own cables/shafts.

System Includes the following hardware:
(1) aluminum rudder
(1) aluminum strut with installed 3/16" Lead Teflon Bearing Sleeve.
(1) Shrink Tubing.
(1) 1'(305mm) piece of 1/4" K&S Brass Tubing.

Requires:
Requires customer to cut flex cable to required length.
Du-Bro 489 or 490 steering linkage connectors.
489 is for 2-56 linkage rod, 490 is much stronger 4-40 linkage rod but will require drilling the the hole larger on the steering arm.

Note: This is the second revision of this item. As of 10/25/2011, we have upgraded the strut to allow use with a larger prop and strengthened the strut barrel.

**1945dave** · 10-05-2012, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by esadler

Will this one work?.

Please get this right, it is the diameter of the flex cable itself that needs upgrading not the stub shaft. So none of the flex cable/collet items you asked about qualify.

The cable itself needs to be 3/16" or .187 inches or 4.76 mm all of these are exactly the same. A heavier stronger flex cable to handle the extra power and stress when running 6S batteries is what we are trying to achieve. I will put together a parts list with item numbers so you can see what is needed.

I like the Graupner Prop but be careful going to any bigger props. The amperage is our concern now and if you go with a larger prop you will fry your ESC, I would bet on it.

Don't get too hung up on saying you are only running 80 or 90 percent throttle. How do you know? Because you didn't bottom out the trigger or stick? Most guys only think of the throttle as a off/on switch, maybe for the time being you should think that way too. Trust me half throttle has nothing close to being half speed or even half amperge current.

The Leo 4082 1600kv motor is a great choice for you. The stock Genesis motor mount on the collet end will handle the larger motor but you will need a new rear ring, 40mm size. I bought one and got it to work with the stock Genesis motor mount but had to use a shorter cooling jacket. It depends on what length cooling jacket your motor comes with. With the extra long cooling jacket the rear mounting ring was beyond the existing mounting holes.

Regarding running 4S on that 1600kv motor. Yes, choosing that motor is a committment to run 6S. 4S would provide a unloaded rpm of around 23,680. This without jacking up the prop and current draw would probably leave you in the mid 40 mph speed range. You would be better off staying with the stock setup which is designed for 4S.

Regarding your performance on 6S now. If you haven't blown over backwards yet and haven't seen the boat dance on its tail you can bet you not close in the setup yet. Hard for us to tell you in this forum what adjustments you need to consider. Perhaps a video would give us something to go on. Are you sure you have the throttle end points set correctly. That is are you sure when you give the transmitter full speed ahead the receiver tells the ESC and motor the same thing? This is easy to miss. And perhaps the reason your amperage draws and temps are low is that you really are not pushing the power button. That would explain a lot.

Anyway, lets take this slow. Don't worry about the upgrades just yet. Let me make a shopping list for items and you tweak the boat for now. That is a good plan.

Dave

**TristanJones** · 10-29-2012, 09:12 AM

Great thread!! I'll be following closely.
Thanks for the info! I'm in exact same situation as thread starter.

Tristan.

**J Robbo** · 10-29-2012, 04:33 PM

Great thread!! I'll be following closely x2.
Hi guys, Im in the same position
here. Im a complete newby to rc boats and have a brand new Geneisis and Apparition 2 sitting on the bench waiting.
Still need to order ESC,and would like to sort out/upgrade the cooling system before my first run,any tips in that area would be much appreciated.

**1945dave** · 10-30-2012, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by J Robbo

Great thread!! I'll be following closely x2.
Hi guys, Im in the same position
here. Im a complete newby to rc boats and have a brand new Geneisis and Apparition 2 sitting on the bench waiting.
Still need to order ESC,and would like to sort out/upgrade the cooling system before my first run,any tips in that area would be much appreciated.

Upgrade the cooling system? Why do you think this is necessary? I can help you explore this direction if you choose but until you start modifying the stock performance ability this is not needed.

Dave

**J Robbo** · 10-31-2012, 03:18 AM

Thanks for the reply mate, I will be upgrading the motor/motors once Ive had a bit o a play around with the stock motors and try and get my head around how to set these things up.
Ive been doing a fair bit of reading on here and have come to the conclusion that ESC and motor temps are the biggest problem.
Im not real keen on the idea of cooling system running from motor mount to the motor and then the ESC. Wouldn't it be better to have a pickup for each? Although it may not be necessary on the stock setup, Id prefer to do it now before I run the boat then Id have everything sorted for when I decide to upgrade motors.

**TristanJones** · 10-31-2012, 04:48 AM

Ive been running mine a lot recently, twice daily and logged a bit of temp date that might or might not be usefull...
I have found on 4s 40-50c 4ah turnigy batteries.
Ambient Air temp 30c water temp 27c
Im seeing 50-52c temps on both batteries after 5 mins!!!!
motor showing 52deg at back end of shaft (58-62c on 5s)
ESC is a T120 (wouldn't buy another one) its seeing 50-52 depending on how it feels I guess.
I wish I could provide more specs on what prop Im using all I know is its from hobbyking and its a metal 440 which I have balanced and sharpened (not in that order).
Hope that helps both of us get the info e need to see hat these stock motors can do (though Im told extensively not to expect much).

New Genesis Setup?

New Genesis Setup?

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